Evidence of meeting #67 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was way.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
What does meaningful indigenous involvement in research projects look like in practice, though?
November 27th, 2023 / 5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Dechinta Centre for Research and Learning
I think there are lots of really great examples of that. The minister's task force on northern post-secondary education and research, for example, called for more significant investment in researchers and research collaborators. What it means is that we don't have southern researchers, folks based in southern institutions, determining what research priorities are important and who is going to be at the table and then coming to indigenous organizations or indigenous people after those key objectives or research outcomes are already set. It's important to have indigenous folks engaged early in determining what research agendas are the most important.
That means starting to do that important work of actually building relationships before our research grants are even written. It means face-to-face time, lots of visits, lots of Zoom meetings and time to actually build relationships of trust between individuals and communities.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
I think that's very important, just talking about the trust and the relationships. That's probably the most important thing we need to deal with.
Unfortunately, I'm out of time, so I'll end there.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That was a great line of questions, with great answers as well, so thank you both.
Dr. Jaczek, you have six minutes, please.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for what you've had to tell us today.
Certainly I acknowledge the importance of indigenous knowledge. I will never forget that when I was a medical student in the sixties and seventies, I learned to my astonishment that oral contraceptives came from yams. That was based on observational knowledge in Mexico among the indigenous population there. As Mr. Lametti said, big pharma has quite often taken advantage of indigenous knowledge and appropriated it, changing a molecule here and there and patenting all sorts of medications.
Having said all that, like Mr. Soroka, I'm really interested in how we can achieve this type of partnership that has been talked about by so many of you.
Dr. DeGagné, you're recommending institutions potentially being run by indigenous groups and so on. Is there any model for that? Dr. Wrightson has talked a little bit about what she is doing up in the Northwest Territories. Are some provinces and territories moving in that direction?
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Indspire
The first model that comes to mind is a program in law at the University of Victoria. Instead of taking what was the normal stream of law at UVic, they created a program that was uniquely indigenous. It's indigenous law.
You'd think, “Well, how different could that be?” Most of the difference is in methodology and how these things are taught. The organizers of the degree program, themselves indigenous, would go to indigenous communities, often to their own communities, and get a teaching. They would bring that teaching back to the school. That teaching was a story. They would then process that story with students: Here is the story. What do you think this means in terms of how it's interpreted? What do you think this means in terms of law and policy?
This isn't particularly siloed. It is a unique approach, a unique methodology that honours the ways in which knowledge has been transmitted in our communities for thousands of years. I think the only thing I can really caution—this has been cautioned many times, I'm sure—is to avoid starting this with a western lens and then seeking to add in where you can indigenous knowledge as it's understood through a western context.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Are there other areas, in perhaps health sciences in particular, where you see that this kind of model could be used or where you have seen it used?
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Indspire
Yes. I think it's often used in health communication. In indigenous communities where those cultural stories are still strong, there is a way to communicate health remedies through this same sort of story method: Here's a story, and between the two of us, can we seek to dialogue a little bit about how we understand this story and what it means for your health?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
In terms of the federal government, you would suggest that the tri-council should be actively looking at funding this type of knowledge-seeking. I think that speaks to what Dr. Wrightson was also saying. She had great difficulty in terms of her application and having to go through a southern institution. Perhaps there are some barriers there to accessing this type of funding.
5:10 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Indspire
I think there are. First of all, the accreditation process for what constitutes a university was certainly one of the hurdles for Dr. Wrightson. Yes, I think there are opportunities here.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Dr. Armstrong, you alluded to some of the difficulties you had in the studies you were involved in. Is there anything the federal government can do to enhance this concept of partnership—that the sharing has to occur right from the start and has to be the basis? Is there anything we can recommend?
5:10 p.m.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
The reason I was mentioning the En’owkin Centre as an institute of higher learning is that it's mandated by the chiefs of the Okanagan to make sure that our knowledge and our language and our ways of knowing on the land are included in everything that they're working on, particularly the environment.
One of the issues that I was wanting to point out was that there does need to be recognition of the institutions of higher learning that are convened by the nations themselves, by the indigenous peoples themselves, in this work. That may be a provincial policy, but I think the federal government needs to really rethink what first nation lands and jurisdictions are about. I think that when we're talking about our language and our continued use of our land, we are talking about first nations that have been there for thousands of years and speak that language and are using it every year.
I'm in my seventies. I've been out harvesting; my brothers have been out hunting and fishing every year of their lives. That kind of in situ understanding and science of our land is not duplicated in universities or by any experts, even if they're indigenous externally. That really needs to be given policy.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Very good. Thank you very much.
Go ahead, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, for six minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to welcome the witnesses joining us for this second hour of the meeting.
My first question is for Mr. Lewis.
Mr. Lewis, I would like you to share your knowledge with us. Is there a universal definition of indigenous knowledge?
5:10 p.m.
Assistant Professor, University of Saskatchewan
[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]
On indigenous knowledge, a lot of people on this land have different ideas, different systems of learning. Here we have the Nakota, the Cree, the Ojibwa, and here we have these other people who come from different countries; they all have different knowledge and they have different ways of transferring knowledge.
There is not only one way of learning. This is the first time that we've really sat together to discuss about indigenous knowledge, but as we keep going, we will continue to learn more because we all have different ways of knowing, different ways of transferring knowledge.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Lewis.
As you say, there is no universal definition. According to my research, spirituality and religious beliefs are always included.
How do we distinguish between knowledge and beliefs? Personally, I really believe that indigenous knowledge can contribute to science. How do we define what a belief is and what knowledge is?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, University of Saskatchewan
[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]
Yes, you are correct. That's our way of thinking.
The other thing that I can say is the French, for example, the way I understand it—the people who are here—have a different way of learning, a different way of thinking in French. For example, we work with the Maori, for example, and the Hawaiians, and even the ones who we were talking about, people from Peru, and they are related to the land in their own world view. We each have our own world view. Our elders are crying for knowledge and they are crying to find ways to transfer the knowledge, the teachings, but then they are also afraid to transfer their knowledge because they don't want to let it go; they don't want to let it be stolen. This is where they are stuck.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Lewis, Canada has laws. There are also Supreme Court judgments that define the concept of “knowledge”. We have the Mohan decision, which was made in 1994 and sets out the basis for defining “knowledge”.
Do you agree with the definition of “knowledge” in the Mohan decision?
5:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, University of Saskatchewan
[Witness spoke in Plains Cree, interpreted as follows:]
Again, what I want to say is that if you look for examples, this is the first time that we've actually had Cree being spoken in this House of Commons. This is where we are slowly getting used to hearing the Cree language being spoken. If Cree is being heard and spoken here, then this is where it would entice the elders and the researchers who come and work together, and they can express their concern and all their native teachings.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
Mr. DeGagné, how do you differentiate between “knowledge” and “belief”? I referred earlier to the Mohan decision, put forward in 1994, which defines the concept of “knowledge”.
Do you agree with that Supreme Court decision?
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Indspire
I'm sorry. It was a little bit too low. However, if it's in the same sort of vein, maybe I can go back to how I would interpret both of these types of knowledge.
At the heart of western science is the scientific method. The scientific method proposes a hypothesis and it suggests a firm methodology. Then it tries very much to isolate, to the best it can, a cause and an effect: “We did this, and therefore this happened.” By definition, then, the scientific method is a narrowing of our knowledge so that we understand one thing very well.
Indigenous knowledge, generally, if you can say it this way, is exactly the opposite: It proposes a look at a system and how everything is in relation to other things in the system. Instead of isolating individual actions and reactions, it looks at a broader relationship among elements, either in the natural world or wherever.
That's how I interpret these differences. These are not mutually exclusive concepts; they both can aid each other. I think that's highly advisable as part of this process.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That's fascinating. I just love this conversation.
Thank you so much, both of you and all of you.
Mr. Cannings, you have six minutes, please.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you all for being here.
I'm going to turn to Jeanette Armstrong, because she's a friend and colleague.
I must admit, Jeanette, that when I suggested to the committee that we take on this study, I was thinking of you. I'm so glad that you could join us here with the rest of the witnesses today.
You mentioned a couple of projects that you're doing through your chair at UBC Okanagan. I know another post you have that is at that intersection of indigenous knowledge and settler science. It's on COSEWIC, the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada. It is meeting here in Ottawa this week, so it's on the top of my mind.
Can you talk about your role in COSEWIC and how you think that's going? How is indigenous knowledge used there, and do you think there are ways it could be better integrated with science?
5:20 p.m.
Associate Professor, As an Individual
My role in COSEWIC is on the aboriginal traditional knowledge subcommittee. There are two of us who were identified by the Assembly of First Nations to be put forward to the minister for appointments. I was appointed by the Minister of Environment. I have served at least three terms on the committee.
One of the answers, I think, to that question is what that committee is grappling with. You have a committee of 12 people, basically, who are appointed by the five major aboriginal organizations that are recognized in Canada. They are there to assist with providing the best ATK, or the best traditional knowledge, to the status listing process. The problem that we have is that every indigenous area, landscape, terrain and water is different. The people who live those areas approach knowledge production differently.
I use the words “indigenous science” to differentiate it from traditional knowledge and belief. The science of indigenous people is not only precise and factual but has been built up about that land they specifically have occupied and lived on for thousands of years and have passed on in their families as hunters, harvesters, berry pickers or whatever. The problem is that what government policy seems to want is some kind of monopolicy to cover so many different ways of approaching that science knowledge from indigenous people and working with it in terms of using it, for instance, in the SARA listing, or used in recovery or in co-management or in other areas.
Unless that policy is changed in terms of finding ways to specifically develop principles that understand and work with people who are deeply embedded in situ on their lands, you're always going to get something else. You're going to get something that's externalized and something that fits into western science modalities. That is what I see as a real need for a group of people who are from first nations living in situ that can create and set down principles that can help in policy development that can really elevate and change the way that the tension between the two sciences is reconciled.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Lim’limpt. I would just like to turn back to the En'owkin Centre that you referenced a couple of times. I know that the En'owkin Centre has been doing conservation projects for many years now with western scientists, with settler scientists. I'm wondering if you could comment on that process, which presumably is driven by the En'owkin Centre. How does it differ perhaps from other projects that you've encountered?