Evidence of meeting #71 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was western.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Mr. Gingras, if traditions and beliefs are incorporated into public policies without a validation or verification process, what impact might this have on government policy?
12:30 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
The term "probative data" is widely used these days. It's cutting edge. Probative data is essential. What these words mean is that the accuracy of the information has to be checked. If that is not done, money will be wasted and it won't work. If it happens to work—so much the better if it does—verification will come afterwards.
For example, people shouldn't believe what I might say about Montmorency Falls simply because I happen to live in Montmorency. If you want to check the information, you have to go there. I shouldn't be considered an authority or more knowledgeable about these falls than anybody else. Definitely not. The scientific community needs to verify the facts.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
I wish we had a blackboard.
Thank you very much. I'm sorry that I have to cut you off.
Mr. Cannings, go ahead for six minutes, please.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you to both witnesses for being here today.
I'm going to start with Dr. Czuy.
You talked quite a bit about stories. It made me think of a Thomas King quote: “The truth about stories is that that's all we are.” I come from a science background. I remember that in my university days, the times when I was really learning things were when I heard stories from professors that put me in a place where I could see patterns and those types of things.
I remember that the only way I learned anything about calculus was studying astronomy first. I always objected to the teaching of biology where.... In university you start with cell chemistry, which is the most abstract way of trying to engage any young person in studying something. If you stuck around for four years, you might actually get out in the woods and see the real world.
Could you maybe expand on that in your work with indigenous science?
12:30 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Absolutely.
As I mentioned, when working with children—or anyone—the first thing I do is take them outside. One assignment right now for my university class is to go out on the land and learn something. The land will tell you. It will teach you something. Those are the truly relational methods. That starts a story.
When you are out on the land and listening to the leaves and then a few months later the sound of those leaves changes because the water is leaving them and preparing for the cycle of winter, those frequencies can teach you something. There is learning from a squirrel about how they can preserve food. They use specific plants to preserve certain foods. Those chemical and biological methods are something we learn from the squirrel.
Those are stories. How cool would it be to start your chemistry lesson by hanging out with a squirrel and learning how it preserves stuff? We can connect with those stories. We can see this, which is very cool. We can experience it and it creates an emotion in ourselves. It creates a relationship, a relationality and, as you mentioned, a story.
Those ways—not the written word—and those stories are how this knowledge has been passed down. As I mentioned, these scientific stories are not written down in books. There are no clay tablets from thousands of years ago that indigenous people have written on in these lands. It is through stories that are passed on.
Yes, these change as the generations pass them on, but the essence of them is the same. These are, if we want to say it, the “peer reviews”. I always mention that the person or community that passed on a story and knowledge to me is the peer review. You can go back to those elders and community members and can validate the knowledge that I said. I may say it in a way that is more relational, which allows us to connect. That's the story method. That's how the connection and knowledge are passed on. That is different than just reading something.
It can be very similar knowledge, but it's about the way it creates connection and relationality that is really brought about in story.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you.
You also mentioned a parallel path. I wonder if you could expand on that. I'm wondering whether you meant that indigenous knowledge and “scientific knowledge” are on parallel paths, because parallel paths tend not to meet. I wonder if there is a way of bringing those two things together when we are formulating government policy, for instance. That's what we're talking about here today.
12:35 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
Absolutely. In that case, a parallel path is more about walking alongside one another and supporting one another. That goes back to wampum belt teachings, which I don't have the rights to pass on or feel comfortable passing on, but look that up. You can offer some tobacco and ask about wampum belt teachings. However, it is about how we walk together on this path, side by side. Weaving things together is how we, similarly, support the path so that it retains its integrity. They're similar, but a little different.
Absolutely, we have to support one another, and the parallel path of.... I've walked in both worlds. I understand how I can do science and how I can speak in both worlds. Asking if we can walk on this parallel path is also about asking other people who are involved to do the same—to do that work and help us come to the same page, to walk together on this path together, so that we can best understand and support one another.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Thank you. I'm really enjoying this conversation.
We'll go over to Ben Lobb for five minutes, please.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thanks very much.
Maybe, in our last committee meeting before Mr. Cannings retires, he can tell us all his stories. We might find those pretty interesting.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
I liked his quoting Thomas King, who is a Guelphite.
Anyway, we'll go back over to you, Mr. Lobb.
February 6th, 2024 / 12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Ms. Czuy, you mentioned, at the end your presentation, free, prior and informed consent. As you are so proficient in mathematics and have worked extensively within many communities, I'm curious if there is a finite period of time, or a calculation and solution, when a business wants to, let's say, build a mine—or whatever it might be—in a community or communities that might be impacted by that mine, which may or may not be for the good.... Is there a way for the community to say that they can check all the boxes and have been consulted and informed? Is there a calculation for that? Is there a way, or is it still a process that every community is working through?
12:40 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
The answer is probably no. Every community is different, and every community has a different level of trust in these processes with whatever organization they may be involved with.
It has to start from the beginning. Any of this work being done, whether it is a mine or whatever else it might be, has to start, from the very first conversation, with “We're thinking of doing this so let's talk to the community.” That is the parallel path. That is working together side by side. It's not saying, “We are going to do all this planning, we've invested all this money and the blueprints are out” and then seeing if it's okay, because then it's already done; there's no “prior”. Then there's free—they don't have to pay and don't have to work with prior.... There's also informed—they are informed of all of the information available and possible. Even with consent, that relationship has to start from the beginning.
On the timelines, time is a colonial construct, and the community's time is not going to align with business timelines, because their priority is community and seasonal change. When they say they can't make a meeting because it's the same day as a ceremony, that is the priority. It is a respect of those priorities. Again, it's that parallel path.
That's probably not the answer you want to hear, and I apologize for that, but it is the reality. I understand that isn't—
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
No, I wasn't looking for any particular answer—just your answer.
If you turn on the news every night and look at the strife among what are called the western democracies, you could say, or just the issues in Canada in our cities and in our small communities, there are a lot of issues. What are some takeaways from indigenous communities that might provide some benefit to community or benefit to society? Do you have any comments or thoughts on that?
12:40 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
I do. I'll reference Robin Wall Kimmerer, a member of the Potawatomi community, who wrote Braiding Sweetgrass. Read it. She said something beautiful: When is Mother Earth going to be thanked by humans for being here, because she gives so much? Everything we have is from the earth. We take all of that, but when do we give back?
Thinking about that—everything is an ancestor, everything gives us something, everything is alive—how do we give back for the food we bought from the grocery store instead of just taking it and paying for it, and really understand those relationships, those cycles, those relationalities? It's about having that moment of appreciation and respect, and the responsibility we have, really, to the earth and everything around us to give back and have gratitude.
We have a responsibility, being on this land, and we're not really being accountable to that responsibility. Thinking about that will maybe shift some mindsets a bit.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
Terrific. Thank you. I wrote down Braiding Sweetgrass. Indigenous reads month is coming up, and that needs to be on my list.
Thank you for the great questions, Mr. Lobb.
Now we'll go over to Dr. Jaczek for the next five minutes.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Over the break, I did read Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimmerer. I found it helpful for the work of this committee.
To bring us back to the work of this committee, our study charges us to make recommendations on “how best to integrate Indigenous Traditional Knowledge and science into government policy development” and “how to resolve conflicts between the two knowledge systems”. We've clearly differentiated in this request that there are two knowledge systems.
On a practical basis, Dr. Czuy, could you give us some suggestions on how we can do this? What can the Government of Canada do?
12:45 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
I believe I've already said that. We have to walk alongside one another. How many indigenous people are in that room right now? What is your plan to work alongside communities throughout this process and not just today or through these meetings? I suggest that it's something that communities have to be a part of at every step, not just in these conversations. They're a great starting point, but I think it really is about ongoing work and about, again, doing the work.
I love that you've read Braiding Sweetgrass. I think there's a lot there about going to the community and really seeing and experiencing what indigenous science is. Maybe the question of the conflict between indigenous and western science will be removed. How do we bring it together so that there's not a conflict but an understanding?
We understand what the western school of science is. Everybody understands what that is. However, understanding the value of indigenous science, understanding how those methods are different and understanding how we connect with those are a great move for everyone to try to understand.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Can you give some examples of academic institutions that are operating in this way? Have any provincial governments given us some examples? Are there perhaps even international examples of where this has been effective?
12:45 p.m.
Indigenous Science Consultant, As an Individual
There are many examples. Maybe I can send them in later.
I think examples of the ways this has been done well are when indigenous people are at the forefront. If you look at any of the Maori universities in New Zealand, they are at the forefront of everything. They are at the decision-making level of this work. That's just how it is.
I will say it: Yes, I have a Ph.D. and I work for universities, but the most significant knowledge I've ever been gifted has been from my elders. I say that they have a Ph.D. We can understand the western system, but it is the elders with a “Ph.D. of the land” who really have the knowledge that can help us bring this together. They should be the ones at the decision-making level as well.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Dr. Gingras, I would invite you to address the purpose of our study with any comments you may have.
12:45 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
I think we need a concrete mechanism, not vague metaphors about collaborating. I'll give you a very simple example.
Peer review is done in science double-blind. Why is it double-blind? When you send in a paper, you want it to be evaluated as if it's good, and you don't want cognitive bias to move it in a bad direction. When you send in a paper, you don't have the name of the individual and you don't have the name of the institution, because if it's written at Harvard University, you may think it's a good paper, so double-blind works. It means that when you are consulting on a policy, you are consulting everyone who has an expertise, and then you make a decision in the end. There are no two ways or no five ways.
Since the 17th century, the Chinese don't say yin and yang to go on the moon. They say that they learned from Newton, learned from Einstein, learned from everyone. I don't want to know the colour of your skin. I don't want to know your community. Do I speak for the Quebeckers? That does not exist. I am a Quebecker, and I make my decision.
For your committee to integrate, I'm sorry, but I think it's simpler than we think. If you are addressing an environment policy in a given place, you have a committee talking to everyone who wants to talk. We already do that in environmental studies. Some people come and say they don't think you should do that for this or that reason, but that reason must be consensual. That's what the Supreme Court decided also. Judge Binnie said that if you want expertise at the Supreme Court, this expertise must be subjected to the usual methods of the scientific community. Why? That's the only way to be sure it's true and can be verified.
12:50 p.m.
Professor of History and Sociology of Science, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
There are mechanisms and they are not complicated, I think.