Status of Women Committee on Feb. 6th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Sure.

[Gunilla Ekberg]

I think it's important to separate the tasks of a national rapporteur, which are actually to uncover and present the reality of trafficking in Canada. From those presented recommendations, it is then up to the government to make political decisions on whether or not to implement the recommendations and to fund whatever actors need to implement those decisions. So you cannot only have a national rapporteur, but you also need to have an office or individuals within the government who are responsible, like the interdepartmental working group—which is not working very well in Canada at this moment, but something like that—that has the ability and right to develop the measures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Davidson, do you want to share another question? You have one minute and ten seconds.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I just want to ask Ms. Wahlberg about the couple of different figures I heard. I think one was maybe in Swedish money, and I think Ms. Ekberg gave another in dollars. Can you tell me again what money is being spent in Sweden? This is not money for your position, but money for the implementation of your report, is that correct?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Let me say that the former government did a lot on this, but the present government hasn't presented any budget. If I look at everything that was spent during the five years I worked within the government, including the 30 million Swedish kronor that went to the national rapporteur—

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

How much is that in Canadian dollars?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

I will translate that in a moment.

The total, you could say, was about 350 million Swedish kronor, which is about $50 million, if one dollar is seven kronor. It includes all of the multilateral projects we have done, the prevention measures within Sweden and outside, and the 30 million kronor—about $4.5 million—that went to the police. So it includes everything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

What I'd like to do, members of the committee, is give two to three minutes now for closing statements—and please stick to your time.

What I have heard is that human trafficking in women and children is a human rights disaster and requires a comprehensive strategy. What I haven't heard is the experience of countries like India, which has legalized prostitution—and you mentioned criminalizing the user—and China, where we have a huge trafficking problem. If you have an opportunity and you can address that, do it. If you don't, just give me two to three minutes of closing remarks.

Thank you.

Mr. Dandurand.

[Yvon Dandurand]

I don't think I can give you a comprehensive answer to your question, Madam Chair, but we've talked about the Dutch rapporteur, so one has to remember that in Holland, for instance, human trafficking is defined exclusively in terms of sexual exploitation and does not include other forms of exploitation, as the Canadian law does.

Also, the problem tends to have been reduced to a question of sexual exploitation. There is much more to human trafficking. There's also much more to human trafficking than simply the crossing of borders or the international dimension. So when we look at the experience of other countries that have adopted a focus on sexual exploitation, we have to remember this is not our definition of human trafficking, neither is it the definition of the United Nations protocol against the trafficking in persons.

In terms of the policy, my own personal view, based on the experience that I have, is that, really, the jury is still out. There is no conclusive evidence either way. Both policies, with regard to prostitution, bring advantages and disadvantages, and yes, there are issues of sometimes creating more problems by our response than by driving some of those social problems into dark corners so we don't see them.

So I do not believe there is conclusive evidence either way, and that is why it is such a hotly debated issue, not only here but everywhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Perrin.

[Benjamin Perrin]

Thank you.

I want to, first of all, address that international question, since our organization does a great deal of work in countries that either have legalized prostitution or they might as well have, because they sure as heck are not implementing their own laws.

I've never met a trafficking victim in a developing country who has chosen to enter that profession. I don't think any young woman wakes up and decides one day that's what she's going to do, when the other option is to go to school and have a job and learn a vocation or trade. That false dichotomy about these choices doesn't exist. So that's really the starting point.

You'll find studies on both sides that say that it helps, that it hurts. This is a bit of a side debate, and I want to encourage the committee to focus, at least in this study, on the issue of human trafficking as it currently exists in Canada. There's another committee, there have been other committees that have looked at the legalization of prostitution. It's an issue that will be controversial and one for which there's no consensus among the members here, that I'm aware of. So I would encourage the committee to focus on the human trafficking issue.

The second thing is that we do have a definition that over 100 countries have agreed to. It's in the UN trafficking protocol, and it's in the report that we provided in our first brief. That's the definition; that's what we have to work with. We need to study it more. These are all, if not excuses, reasons to delay more. They're not going to help these people who are today in Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver, and Windsor. In every one of your ridings, whether you know it or not, they're there, and that really needs to be driven home.

So where can the committee go from here? There are other witnesses. If you're serious about a national rapporteur or a national office, you need to talk again to the RCMP, with their trafficking task force. We don't have one super police agency in Canada that does it all, so they're the one to talk to on a national level. They liaise very closely with the local police organizations.

As I've mentioned before, Vancouver is an excellent area, both because of the risk it's facing, but also because the work that's being done there is a real microcosm for action and things that are being done. So I would encourage that as a place to start.

Additionally, I don't think the options between whether we have a rapporteur or an office is really all that constructive. I think what we need to do is, first of all, agree we need to have better intelligence information on human trafficking in Canada. That's the first step. Then we have to have a coordinated approach within the government to address it, and realize that the current system is fulfilling neither of those two.

That's a significant enough recommendation. I would encourage some unity in the report that comes out. More is likely to happen that's good for victims. Rather than going to the minutia of what exactly the mandate is...it's good to propose it, but if you're seeing disagreement as your deliberations continue, I encourage you to go broad or get a bit more general.

We're not going to have any action until this gets higher on the political agenda. The fact that it's in a parliamentary committee is fantastic. It needs to go to the next step. It needs to be in the House of Commons and at the cabinet table.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Ekberg, would you like to make some closing remarks?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

Yes, and because I will do them, I get a bit longer.

As for the international aspects, I want to point out that recently the Dutch police closed down half of the red light district in Amsterdam, due to the involvement of organized crime. That tells us exactly what legalization does, as to attracting organized networks.

When we started to work in Russia, the Baltic countries, and in Nepal, there were propositions to legalize the prostitution industry in all these five countries. They have all now chosen to go the other way and focus on preventative measures: on the social, economic, and legal position of women, and so on; on criminalizing the buyers; and on putting a lot of emphasis into working against the organized networks.

Nepal is a case in point. I spent a lot of time in Nepal, a country with armed conflicts that just ended, where women were sold over the border to India, and where local prostitution and the trafficking of women internally was quite developed because of the armed conflict. Yet the new government made the decision to put into place a national rapporteur. They will criminalize the buyers in the new legal proposal, and they will expand the possibilities of a national action plan.

So in Canada, it's necessary to have an independent national rapporteur to dig into and get more information about the situation here, because now the information is so scattered and has not been gathered, and nobody has a clue about what's going on in different provinces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Does Ms. Wahlberg have anything to add?

[Gunilla Ekberg]

No, we discussed it beforehand. For her, having had this position for so long, and having seen the development of the work that she and her colleagues have been able to do, of course she can only encourage you to establish a national rapporteur.

As we discussed beforehand, you're welcome to come here and see for yourself how this work is developed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Committee members, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their time, the efforts that they have spent, and the expert opinions they have given us.

I thank you for the turnaround time that you gave us. We gave you information at the last minute, and you were able to accommodate us. So thank you very much. It was a very worthy interaction, and I hope you found it the same way.

Committee members, what I'd like to do is suspend the public part of this to go in camera.

The meeting is suspended for one minute.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have before you a motion by Ms. Smith.

Could you read your motion, please.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

My motion reads as follows:

That the Standing House of Commons Committee on the Status of Women consider prostitution as the sexual exploitation of human beings, mainly women, that results from, and promotes, relationships of inequality and violence between men and women in our society;

That the Committee therefore recommend to the government and to the House that they take this opinion of the Committee’s into consideration in all approaches to amending the provisions of the Criminal Code regarding prostitution-related activities;

That the Committee therefore recommend to the government that it take this opinion of the Committee’s into consideration in orienting the work of Status of Women Canada and the various other Canadian government agencies;

That the adoption of this motion be reported to the House.

Madam Chair, I would just say that this motion, after very strong consultation, private and public, listens to what members and witnesses are saying about the legalizing of prostitution. Without a doubt, one thing we have said on this committee very strongly—and we have heard it from our witnesses—is that prostitution is sexual exploitation of human beings. Our whole study has been on the exploitation of human beings, and that is the thing we are working to stop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Before I open up the floor to discussion, I just want to bring it to the attention of members that a similar motion was proposed by Ms. Mourani, and the committee had expressed concern that it was pre-empting the report. However, I think the committee then adopted the motion.

So keep that in mind in your discussion. I will entertain speakers for the motion and against the motion, for a minute each, please.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Madam Chair, first of all, I would want to see Ms. Mourani's motion—I don't remember the exact wording—in order to see exactly what the difference is, for starters.

Secondly, I'm having some difficulty with motions that are so generic. In this one, the first phrase seems fair enough. All of us agree that it's exploitation of women. We know that. But I'm not entirely sure what we want to do with the second paragraph, where it says “approaches to amending the provisions of the Criminal Code”. What does that mean, and in what context? Are we making some suggestions? Are we just saying to the government to amend the Criminal Code in whatever way, however they can?

Meanwhile, a whole committee has been studying specifically prostitution and presumably will have a major report, yet here we are saying to go and do something. I don't like motions that say we think this is really bad, so go fix it and change the Criminal Code. What exactly do we want them to do? I would rather that we'd done some study and come up with some suggestions. This is so broadly based and so....

And I'm not quite sure about the second-last paragraph altogether. I'm not quite sure what we're trying to accomplish. My problem with it is not so much—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Minna—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, but I can't support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

—I will ask Ms. Smith to explain what she means. If there are any amendments that anybody wants to suggest, Ms. Smith can entertain them.

Ms. Smith, if you could, please respond to Ms. Minna's questions.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I worked on this motion hand in hand with Ms. Mourani when she was on committee. As you know, Ms. Mourani wrote a book on organized crime and prostitution, and she felt very strongly about this issue. I don't know whether it was tabled, but she did present her motion and there was quite a bit of kerfuffle around the table about her motion when it was here. I can't really remember if it was adopted or not. It seems to me that it actually wasn't, because we continued to talk about it and we continued to work together.

I think what we're doing, as the status of women committee, is recognizing that this relationship really is sexual exploitation. Prostitution is the sexual exploitation of human beings, mainly women. We are on the status of women committee, and prostitution does promote relationships of inequality.

So the motion is on the table. I believe that all of those around the table can vote against it or for it, whatever they please, but my motion is on the table and I would like a vote today. That's why I brought it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

According to the minutes of the meeting held on Tuesday, November 21, 2006, Ms. Mourani's motion was agreed to by unanimous consent. Her motion reads as follows:

That the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women recommend to the government that it develop, in collaboration with the provinces, a comprehensive strategy to combat human trafficking in Canada, and that the adoption of this motion be reported to the House.

Yes, Ms. Neville.