Evidence of meeting #52 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to follow up on the conversations. I respect the positions that have been put forward, but I think the characterization that we're heading for this massive social disconnect if this is not addressed.... We have to keep in mind that in fact right from one of the first meetings we held on this topic we heard from department officials that in fact the incidence of poverty in Canada continues to decline. There have been tremendous strides made in the last 20 to 25 years.
Among women in particular, the incidence of poverty was 16.5% in 1997, and by 2004 it was down to 11.7%. The suite of programs that the Canadian government provides and has provided and continues to build on continues to keep that incidence of poverty going down. I don't mean to belittle it, but I think to suggest that somehow we're headed to some crisis might perhaps be overstating it.
4:40 p.m.
Coordinator, Campaign 2000
I would point to the graph on the first page of our presentation where we actually present the poverty rates using the before-tax low-income poverty number, which is the one we use. What the department people have probably told you is the after-tax poverty number. If you look at that, it's 12.8%. But in both cases, the rate has been stalled since about 2001.
Our concern is about why the poverty rate has stalled--and I would say at an unacceptably high level--in a time of strong economic growth. It has never gone down below the rate of 1989, despite our continued economic growth. Clearly, economic growth is not solving the problem.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thank you.
I just wanted to clarify one thing about the LICOs. The immigration department uses the same one. A couple of years ago there was a review, and they use a basket of what a family would need. It was a new system that was introduced. It's actually used across the government by immigration to decide who can sponsor and so on. It's a fairly standard authority.
The other thing I wanted to add is that David Dodge, the head of the Bank of Canada, as you know--he's leaving now--at two separate meetings and in a speech at the Standing Committee on Finance said very clearly that if he had any money at all left to invest, whatever he had left he would invest in early education and child care, because it is an economic program, and that's where you get the best returns on the margins in the long term. This is from the Bank of Canada. I thought that was a pretty strong statement.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
Does anybody want to make one last comment? If you don't, I'd rather close it off.
Thank you, Ms. Maund.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I will try to quickly summarize what we have heard today. If we want to make any headway in fighting poverty, it is up to the government to show that it is serious about it. This has to be a government priority. If it isn't one of the government's priorities, then, logically, no progress will be made and nothing will be done. From what I've heard here today, a government that invests in programs to reduce poverty will save money on health care. We all know how poverty affects families: children suffer from poor nutrition, there are alcohol, drug addiction and mental health problems, and that's only for starters. In the end, the entire system would benefit. That is what I wanted to say.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Ms. Maund.
You've given us a very thoughtful presentation. You came up with what you understand to be the work that Campaign 2000 has done.
You have painted a dismal little picture that child and family poverty has not moved from the same 15% level for 25 years. It gives us food for thought as we move forward on what to do.
I can understand that in 1989 we were in the economic doldrums. In 1998 we brought in the national Canada child tax benefit.
With economic growth, we have to invest in our children and in our citizens. You've given us somewhere to move forward on. Along with economic sustainability, we need to have a social justice mindset as well.
I'd like to thank you for being here.
As we move forward, if you have any more information as to the best practices in other countries, we would like to have it. When we have HRSDC or the finance department before us, we will ask them how they gauge it.
Members of the committee, we have to be mindful as well that we are a different country and we are a different government. We do things differently, but we all want to solve the same problem. Let's see how we can move forward.
With that, I'd like to give you a minute or so to wrap it up.
Thank you very much from the committee.
4:45 p.m.
Coordinator, Campaign 2000
I don't think I need to wrap it up. I said all I needed to say in the presentation.
I thank you for your questions and your interest.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
We will resume the meeting.
I have two things that are committee business.
We have asked HRSDC and finance to come on Tuesday, May 15. As we have listened to a lot of witnesses, they would like to have written questions so that they come prepared. Because they are departments, they will be able to bring us concrete answers.
Ms. Minna, it's what they would like.
If you have questions prepared and you wish to give them to the clerk, let's get those questions in by May 9. If you do not wish to do that and you want to ask them questions directly, that's fine too. This is an option that's been given to you. If you wish to present your questions, please do so.
The second thing is one that will get a lot of people upset, but that's life. The minister is not available to appear until May 30. We have bent over backwards. We have e-mails asking her to come. She said she didn't like Tuesday or Thursday, so we gave her Wednesday. If she appears on May 30, the estimates have to go on May 31.
Committee, what would you like me to do?
Yes, Ms. Minna.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I want to say it is highly unusual for a minister to come so late in the process, when we know that if we don't report, the estimates are deemed to be accepted and we won't have a chance to ask questions.
We are having officials come in prior to that.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
We have HRSDC and the Department of Finance. Do you mean the Canadian Heritage officials? We have no officials coming prior to that.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
From the Status of Women, no, we haven't asked for that. We asked for the minister.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I'm sorry, but I'm not finished.
The reason I'm asking this question is that if the minister comes so late, we should do some preparatory work prior to that with the officials from Status of Women.
Quite frankly, I have to say I'm very disappointed. It is not the way for the minister to treat this committee. She should show more respect to this committee. I know she is busy. All the ministers are busy. That's life in Ottawa.
I'm sorry, but to come the day before the estimates have to be in is not responsible.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
But you're also providing us with a solution by saying we should have the officials.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Having no other choice, I imagine that's what we have to do.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I want to voice my concern about the late appearance of the minister as well. It's very clear this creates a real problem.
It would seem to me she has an obligation to be here so that we can indeed discuss these things. I know you have no power in terms of compelling her, but it would seem to me she's not behaving in a very cooperative or perhaps even responsible way by leaving it so late.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
To be very clear, the minister cares very much about this committee and is doing her very best. We've talked on several occasions and she really wants to appear before this committee. She has time available on May 30, and that is the earliest time, as she has other committees and other things she's already booked into.
I've been on the status of women committee for a couple of terms now, and I know with the former government there were many times ministers could not appear exactly when we wanted them. I think one solution would be to draft a letter to the minister, if there are some concerns that need to be addressed. That might be something to do.
But she's getting here as quickly as she can.