Status of Women Committee on March 11th, 2008

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Would it be like fiscal targets or decisions to maintain a certain reduction of debt each year? These types of broad, big-picture targets and objectives were outside the bounds of GBA?

[Louise Levonian]

Exactly.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay, I think I have that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Stanton, I'd love to just stop your time for a second.

The economists who are coming on Thursday do a macro analysis, and they do break it down by GBA. So what I'm telling you is that we can't hear conflicting information. You're telling Mr. Stanton it can't be done.

Kathleen Lahey, for example, will say, “Here's the data. I can put it on this, and it will disperse it accordingly.” So we need some form of comfort zone as to what you mean when you say you can't do it.

Mr. Stanton had a valid question when he was segregating the two outside, because you said it in your opening remarks, but we will hear totally differently on Thursday. So we are in for turbulent times.

Go ahead.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Madam Chair, I'm sure it can be done, but just as a matter of policy, those types of broad pictures aren't considered currently under GBA.

You made another statement—I think an interesting statement—that in the end, questions pertaining to the budget, fiscal measures, programs that Finance has, ultimately show up in the budget and become a decision made by elected members of the House. I agree with you, by the way. In order for them to make those decisions and determinations, it's helpful to have the benefit of the information and the gender considerations that might also have been contained in that.

Is there anything that the department provides that would help MPs to consider those issues when they look at the budget?

[Louise Levonian]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understood the question. Do you mean could we provide to you the gender-based analysis that goes into advice to the minister?

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Yes. In other words, you say it's up to members to make the decisions about these things, but in order to make qualified and informed decisions, it's good to have the benefit of the information that goes into...in other words, what those impacts might be. For example, in the documents you gave us today we have a picture of what the likely impacts are. We don't necessarily have that in front of us when we're looking at a budget motion, for example, or budget implementation legislation.

Does the department do anything to help MPs make those informed decisions?

[Louise Levonian]

As far as the gender-based analyses that come from departments are concerned, when they go into our budget process and are provided to the minister, that really becomes advice to the minister. But the department has chosen, on the tax side, to provide that information to you. If you wanted to ask departments about their gender-based analysis and how they could provide that to you, they may be able to provide that information. From a tax policy perspective, we provide that information.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

We now go to Madame Deschamps, cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, it seems to me that we are digging but we are not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. In any case, since we have been sitting at this table and hearing many witnesses discuss gender-based analysis, I feel that we are now divided into two parallel worlds, namely the government's policies on the one hand and the efforts you are making with the departments to implement this analysis on the other hand.

Notwithstanding all the goodwill and all that the government may ask us regarding international commitments, there is a further level. There is the international scene, the national level and the concerns of each individual parliamentarian. Even if some say that it is all up to the MPs, I do not quite agree with what Mr. Stanton said earlier. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance will finally clarify and announce the philosophy, or the ideology of the government in power.

Ms. Levonian, how many of the recommendations you made to the Minister of Finance were accepted? It is hard to tell, just as it is difficult for us, as parliamentarians, when a budget is established, to know how the government will be influenced by our recommendations and take them into account. Preparing a budget is a very secret process and, oftentimes, we only recognize the priorities and orientations of the government on the day when the budget is announced. Notwithstanding all the goodwill and everything that you are asked to do, finally, we see that... In any case, I more or less believe in it; this is my own personal opinion. There are two parallel worlds that do not necessarily converge in the end.

[Louise Levonian]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Do you have a response?

[Louise Levonian]

Basically, we are responsible for informing the ministers, and the decisions are then up to them.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

One hand does not know what the other is doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Madame Deschamps, that's their political life. That's the response of their bureaucracy, and we have a Westminster system.

Madam Mathyssen, do you have a final question?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair.

I've been fiddling with some numbers here. One of the realities we're facing in this country is a huge loss of manufacturing jobs. We've heard about the impact that has on families, because of course those jobs come with benefits that are very helpful to women and families.

In budget 2008, there was very little that addressed the loss of manufacturing jobs. The budget contained nothing for affordable housing, and we know that abused women and low-income women desperately need that kind of thing.

Also, from the minister we heard that the cupboard is bare, essentially that the reality in the economy and the tax policies of the last three budgets have made it impossible for the government to invest in the kind of programming that sustains women, that helps them to manage and feed their families. Has there been any analysis of that reality, the fact that the government is saying the cupboard is bare, in terms of its impact on women?

[Louise Levonian]

Unfortunately, that's not in my role as the gender-based analysis champion. That's a very broad policy question that you're asking, and it's not my place to answer that question.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It isn't something that would be of concern within the department, this new fiscal reality that we face?

[Louise Levonian]

The Department of Finance would be concerned globally about the fiscal reality that is faced, but I'm a tax policy person and the gender-based analysis champion for the department.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I think it was Professor Young we heard from and who suggested that in order for a national budget to be truly gender responsive, Parliament should have some oversight. I asked her if it would be a good idea to have an equality gender budgeting commissioner, patterned after the role of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. She thought that would perhaps be a very beneficial thing.

I wonder if, from your perspective, that kind of commissioner would be helpful.

[Louise Levonian]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to be very much help. In my role as the gender-based analysis champion for the department, I raise the profile of gender-based analysis within the department and provide tools to ensure that people can do good gender-based analysis. But I don't feel qualified to answer that broader, overall machinery-of-government question.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So you're not sure if being able to take your concerns or what you're discovering to a commissioner would be of value?

[Louise Levonian]

Just from a broader perspective, I really wouldn't want to comment.

I know what we do within the Department of Finance, and I truly, truly believe that the work, the progress we've made, has been significant. And at the end of the day, public servants, in their heart of hearts, just want to do good analysis and they want to provide the best possible advice. They want to make sure all the angles are covered and put that to ministers to make those decisions.

I know we're trying to do that within the Department of Finance, so that's where I can comment. On the broader--

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

But the buck stops with the minister. I mean, you can provide—