Status of Women Committee on March 24th, 2009

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I'm done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good day, Madam, and welcome to our committee.

I get the feeling that the committee has heard this tale before. I'm talking about the problems women have with the current EI system. We heard from witnesses when the committee examined the issue of the economic security of women. In the previous Parliament, I tabled a bill, Bill C-269, which called for improvements to the EI program. We visited a number of communities throughout the province to discuss the proposed legislation.

Can you tell me if the National Farmers Union that you represent has members across Canada, including in Quebec?

[Joan Brady]

We are in 10 provinces. The National Farmers Union is not in Nova Scotia and we are also not in Quebec.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Last week, I visited several regions in Quebec to discuss another bill. I was very surprised when farm women told us that it was becoming increasingly difficult to run a regional farm, given high costs and declining farm revenues, not to mention that the situation is compounded by the rural exodus of young people. The future of farming is threatened. Young people cannot obtain the required financing to take on responsibility for a farm. Another problem mentioned was the difficulty farm women have obtaining EI benefits.

The concerns addressed in your submission are not new to the committee. We are seeing tangible signs of this very serious problem. You recommend in your submission that the government bring in several measures which you feel would not require a major effort, but rather some political will on the government's part.

I find it interesting that you mention Bill C-308 at the very end of your presentation. My colleague tabled this bill in the House of Commons this past February. You would like all members to throw their support behind this parliamentary initiative given that it addresses a genuine problem. Do you want the focus to be on some of the priorities listed in the six recommendations set out in the bill, which is currently making its way through the parliamentary process, or on everything that could improve the economic situation of farm women, especially since the existing system puts them at a disadvantage?

[Joan Brady]

When referring to the difficulty young people have in starting in agriculture, we use some statistics: in the last 10 years we have lost 62% of our young farmers, and the present average age of farmers is about 57. We are virtually a dying breed. Part of it is that I'm a relatively young person and am a retired farmer because the future wasn't there for us. We were good at what we did, but the future wasn't there.

If we look at EI and at the job of farming and recognize that we need to have positive returns—and protection as well, because it's a vital service—then including farming in EI programming makes a lot of sense and might entice other folks to accept some of the risks that come along with farming, because then they would have security along with them. Maybe those are the major recommendations.

I'm a very principles-based person. I see that we need to make the program accessible. It's there to help people, to get them restarted. Basically, whether it's making the number of hours worked to be eligible the important thing or whether it is deciding that self-employed people need to be eligible, all in all I think we need to make it work for Canadians. We need to get Canadians back to work. We need to understand the economic climate and also encourage folks to start over. I think that's going to be a reality in the next number of years. It's not just on the farm but in the rural community as well that people need support to start over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Madame Deschamps.

Ms. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you also to the witnesses. I'm sure your organization is doing very important work on behalf of farmers. It's in all our interests that we have a viable industry. I represent the interior of British Columbia, with many ranches in the cattle industry, so I certainly appreciate and have heard the very desperate circumstances that many of the hard-working families find themselves in right now.

There are various pieces I would like to key in on from your presentation. Intuitively you indicated that you would suggest net income rather than gross income. Would that be an easy thing to do? EI asks for it on a month-by-month basis, and you probably don't know net until the end of your time. Would that be a somewhat easy thing to do?

[Joan Brady]

It might be if we had an industry standard. I quoted that I was paid $35 for my hog, which cost me $135 to produce. The $135 figure is actually an industry standard. Each and every farmer is going to fluctuate somewhat from that average. If those things could be negotiated, this could be done and could serve as a guideline.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Of course, I expect that at the end of the year when income tax is done you would have accurate figures. That also struck me as something that's hanging there.

Another thing--and I've struggled with this particular piece--is something you talked about: hiring family. I've had some of my constituents flag this to me, even as it relates to such things as summer student employment programs, under which they could have support to hire neighbours' children. They run a family farm and say they're trying to keep the family farm going and don't want to be hiring their neighbours' children; they want to be hiring their own.

The offset of that, of course, is that over many years we have recognized that business hiring and nepotism within government-funded programs in which parents are hiring children is a bit of a struggle. I'd like to explore this, because I think there are some valid points around family farms being perhaps different. How could they not follow that nepotism path that we often struggle with, as a government not wanting to support that tendency?

Do you have any thoughts in that area?

[Joan Brady]

Maybe we could look into a formal program, something that folks apply to. Then you could add certain requirements on business planning. So I think that would be a really positive thing. You could hire your kids through a program and they'd be EI-covered and have certain benefits and things like that. If it's fairly formalized, it would be kind of like a job training program. There might be other ways you could add to their skill sets at the same time.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

In your recommendation, you talked about training that was not available for non-EI recipients or through a lapsed program. Under our new budget, we have the opportunity for non-EI eligible to be eligible for our training program. I think that's a positive thing for the community you represent.

You talked about a program that was there that's no longer there, which was a very positive program. Are there elements within that program that might easily transfer into this new EI program, elements that are specific to agriculture? Do you have some thoughts there?

[Joan Brady]

The CASS program was basically something you applied for, and your eligibility was based on farm income. It was aimed at folks who weren't making a lot of money on the farm. It had various purposes and goals. One was to improve your on-farm practices; another was to enable you to find off-farm work.

It was a good program; it was there when I needed it. As with every program, there were a few challenges. But I believe in education and making it accessible. I look around me and I know different folks who were able to take different things, and they've grown by it. They've improved their operations or managed to find off-farm work that's helped them. I would have comments on CASS if they ever brought it back. But you have to try it and work with it. Something like that would be positive.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That program was good for the farming community, and it will now probably be available through the EI program. I think that's a good thing. There will be opportunities for women and farms to have that support.

Were you looking at training for general job re-entry, or were you emphasizing technology programs? Or was it optional?

[Joan Brady]

I think for me it was optional. I'm a very self-directed learner. I look at the gaps and I try to fill them. In the farm community, there's lots of energy and ingenuity. A lot of folks can do a lot of things if they're supported. So my personal preference would be something that was fairly wide open and self-directed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And Ms. Brady, it's so good of you to be here. I have to say that in a previous life I was a member of provincial parliament in Middlesex County. I knew many folks in Huron County and have long admired the work of the National Farmers Union. I know what it means to communities and I know that the NFU's work and socially progressive policies are very relevant to the quality of life in rural places.

Are farm and rural women included in government consultations about policies like employment insurance? If not, what more could or should be done to make sure these voices are heard when it comes to formulating policy?

[Joan Brady]

We in the NFU really appreciated being called to present here today. It needs to be recognized that we do have women in leadership in agriculture and that we speak on agriculture issues, not just women's issues.

For many years I was involved in women in agriculture in Ontario. There isn't really a group anymore. We always felt that it was important to have that group in order to discuss some of the softer issues, because it's a farm family, it's a place where we live as well as raise our family as well as work. Sometimes in the mainstream when we're working hard to defend our right to make a living, some of those issues get missed.

Presently, I know in Ontario and throughout Canada there's nothing there. I'm not sure on the timeline of things, but at one time there was a Canadian Farm Women's Bureau that we were able to work with on different issues. It has been defunct for a number of years now. That's a resource that could be used for people to connect into.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Defunct, why or how? What happened?

[Joan Brady]

I think the funding was cut.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Was that federal or provincial funding?

[Joan Brady]

I believe it was federal. I'm not entirely sure of the details, but I surely could get that information if you're interested.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I would appreciate that. Over and over again we are finding that this connection to community--the research and support that parliamentarians receive from the community--is no longer there. It feels very much like we're in a vacuum sometimes.

I was looking at some articles, and I chanced across an article by the Prairie Women's Health Centre of Excellence. A farm woman was quoted in that article, and it reads:

There is very little support in terms of managing off-farm jobs, on-farm jobs and family. [It's] the triple role that women play, the care giver role that they also play for their family, but also their parents, and the whole home care issue where farm women may have to be the ones who are supposed to provide care to others that are very near and dear to them. There's also the issue of respite care. If somebody is coming home early from the hospital, how do you take time off from work to be there? [Another problem is] a lot of kids are left home alone while women are out in the field and they're too young.

That whole issue of rural child care was something I encountered as an MPP. It led me to wonder about farm accidents. That is another reality in terms of trying to juggle all of these things and manage when there are no supports like EI.

I wonder if you could comment on the accurate portrayal. Is this indeed accurate? In terms of when someone is injured on the farm, what happens? Is there some support there, like EI or CPP?

[Joan Brady]

I guess I can really speak to that. We had a barn fire in 1995. I was expecting my third child at the time. We moved two weeks after she was born. I was responsible for 90 sows, farrow to finish, which is about 1,000 animals, and David went back to work. Never do that. It was a very trying time.

That was our reality at the time. We moved to a new community and we really didn't have the support. Because my other two children were three and four years old, I was able to get a babysitter after school from four to eight. I needed to do all my work between those hours. Between four and eight I had to do an eight-hour day. My husband worked before work and after work. We got some help on weekends. We worked. That was our reality. It was just a matter of the timing.

I was lucky. I was the farm manager, so I always brought my children to day care. There are many folks who don't have that luxury. Number one is accessible day care. Number two is that the finances are not there. Number three, there is the assumption that we can work and look after them at the same time.

Having said that, my kids, especially my youngest daughter, were quite quick to tell us we were too busy for them. If they expected to spend some time with us, they needed to work with us. I think they have great work ethics today, but at the same time I'm concerned that some of their childhood was not what it could have been.

Certainly those are huge issues on the farm. It is a huge load to carry. In my case, with David working off the farm, if he ever was home I needed him in the barn fixing what I had broken that week. Then the full measure of family responsibility was on my shoulders because I needed him to be elsewhere.

Does that answer your question?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.