Status of Women Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

DWAO did not participate in that directly. I haven't. Individuals may have, in representing their role outside of DWAO, as a person of the CF. We didn't play a role. That would have been done, I'm assuming, by a research council outside of DWAO.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

If I am not mistaken, women make up about 10% of high ranking officers in the regular force, and the vast majority of those women are at National Defence headquarters in Ottawa. How do you explain this? Why are the majority of women in Ottawa? Can you give us the exact numbers in terms of the number of women in the armed forces, specifically the number who have high ranking positions in Canada?

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I think the reason you're seeing more senior people here at NDHQ is that the roles or the positions here at NDHQ are more senior ones, so by default those individuals would be more senior individuals, as opposed to positions on the ship, which would be more operational tradesmen.

Regarding the statistics as they relate to the CF, if you're just looking for a statistic overall, for women, for the regular force, I believe it's approximately 15%, and for the reserves it's a little bit higher. Of course, depending on which element you look at, which trade, those can change. But I would advise that the actual statistics be taken from the organization that collected that information.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

In general, have you noticed or heard about effects of cutbacks within the Department of National Defence or in the armed forces? I am talking about the effects of these cutbacks with respect to the services that are offered to women in the offices dealing with the status of women or gender studies.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

Have I noticed the impact of those studies? I've certainly noticed the impact of...as we grow and evolve as an organization, we become more gender aware...the changes to policy in relation to those items.

I joined in 1998, so I would caution that my experience starts there and a lot was already in place. But there was a time when, similar to some of the rules anywhere, women who were pregnant had a different policy from what there is now that governed their ability to work. I would say that I joined at a point when most of those things had changed. There are not a lot of concrete barriers that exist any longer, so I'm enjoying a lot of the outcome of those changes as we speak.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

It is our understanding that the Canadian Forces is doing exit interviews and that these interviews should be analyzed to determine the factors that lead women to leave the Canadian Forces. This could be used to make recommendations on corrective action aimed at encouraging women to complete their tour of duty. What role does your organization play in analyzing these exit interviews?

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I think any exit interview should be reviewed. Keeping our people is a tough go. We're an employer for whom, certainly, our people are our main resource. If there are patterns specific to women, I think they should certainly be looked at.

We haven't been asked, I haven't been asked yet, to review any of that information, but if there was something systemic that they thought DWAO could provide advice on, absolutely I could see us being pulled in to do so.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

I now have some questions for Ms. Davis.

Good morning and welcome, Ms. Davis.

The documentation frequently shows that one of the problems for women in the Canadian Forces is the warrior culture.

Could you please explain to us what that is exactly, if the individuals who are primarily responsible are aware of this problem, and what measures could put a stop to this culture, which tends to belittle women and other minorities?

[LCol Karen Davis]

The warrior culture generally refers to those values that were assumed to be essential to operational effectiveness, especially in the combat arms domain: assumptions that women and men are different; men are strong, women are weak; women are protected, men protect women; women are emotionally unstable, men are more stable for fighting in war; that sort of thing. Up until 1989 when the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal said that women would be integrated into all environments and roles, the warrior culture and the values associated with an all-male environment were held as essential to combat effectiveness. We've learned since then that the all-male domain is not essential, but there are still strong values related to that, I would say, especially in the land combat arms.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Do you personally find that Canadian Forces officials are taking sufficient measures to halt this phenomenon, which is harmful to women and other minorities? Do you have any recommendations in this regard?

[LCol Karen Davis]

I'm sorry, what was the question again?

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Do you find that the Canadian Forces are doing enough to resolve this problem? Do you have any recommendations to make in this respect?

[LCol Karen Davis]

I think there's a lot of work that's starting to be done by civilian academics, especially related to this. I think the combat arms environment, in particular, is still very masculine dominated and is still guided by those warrior values. Women are quite welcome in that environment if they can adjust and integrate within the environment, but we're also learning that women are essential to combat teams for various reasons, many of which have come up in Afghanistan. I think that as leadership starts to learn more about the value of a mixed gender team and that having women on the team adds value, it's not just about assimilating women into that culture.... As leaders develop and start to better understand the value of greater gender diversity, that will start to change.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am going to have to interrupt you there. Thank you, Ms. Davis.

We are now going to move on to a representative from the government side.

Ms. Ambler, you have seven minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And thank you to both witnesses for joining us today and for your interesting presentations.

Petty Officer Wilson, you mentioned respect for diversity and that it's very important. I just wanted to ask you why you think that's the case, especially as it relates to preventing harassment.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I think that respect for diversity is probably one of the foundations, sort of cornerstone constructs, that need to drive equality in the workplace. We all know there are probably organizations that will say on paper that employment equity is important, but until that respect for diversity and understanding that it's important actually become part of the culture, it's just a lot of exactly that: stuff on paper. I think it's incredibly important that we have a culture that respects that, to drive toward the compliant organization under employment equity.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

Both of you mentioned culture change. I think we've heard from a number of our witnesses that things have changed over time. Your experiences have been since 1998, and I think, Ms. Davis, your experiences date back to when you joined the forces in 1978, I believe.

Ms. Davis, you spoke about the culture change. Can you tell us why the numbers are decreasing? We did hear from Mr. Karol Wenek that the incidences of sexual harassment are decreasing. We've also heard that of all the complaints in the Canadian Forces, 8% of all the harassment complaints are of a sexual nature. Actually, I don't know if it's 8% or 3.7%. It's in the single digits, in other words. Can you tell me why, in your experience over the years.... Has the culture change contributed to the decrease? I guess that is my question.

[LCol Karen Davis]

Are you asking me that question?

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Yes.

[LCol Karen Davis]

I think as more and more women are serving in the military, and especially moving into leadership roles, that can definitely have an impact on the culture.

In terms of whether the incidence of sexual harassment has actually gone down, I would reserve my opinion on that until I see the results of the 2012 survey, because I really do believe, having conducted interviews with close to 100 women who have served in the Canadian Forces, that a formal complaint is very much a last resort. The anonymous survey process is our best chance at getting a realistic measure of perceptions of harassment, but women perceiving that they've been harassed, again whether they're founded or not, is another question.

Overall, probably.... There are indications. For one thing, I think our leadership doctrine and our leadership training has developed considerably. Throughout the 1990s there were many investigations and boards that looked at the Canadian Forces very closely. In 1997 the Minister of National Defence at the time issued a report on the leadership and management of the Canadian Forces. That resulted in significant change in the way we developed military leaders. We shifted very much to a values-based model with an emphasis on Canadian values, representing what Canadian citizens wanted to see in their military.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Is one of those values zero tolerance for harassment, sexual harassment in particular?

[LCol Karen Davis]

Certainly, although we did learn through experience that using the zero tolerance approach created a negative effect in the operational environment. We ended up with leaders who couldn't lead because they were so afraid of being accused of sexual harassment. We've come a long way in training leaders and developing leaders in terms of the difference between disciplining, motivating, and training a team versus harassment.

A balanced approach, I think, is what's been adopted through the new policy, the dispute resolution process, and that sort of thing.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

That's interesting. There aren't very many witnesses who would disagree that zero tolerance may not be the best way to go. You're right that this is a very human issue and sometimes what one person thinks of as harassment is a typical day in the life of someone else. That does make it difficult.

You're saying that your leadership training courses help leaders in the Canadian Forces to distinguish and to use common sense and judgment.

[LCol Karen Davis]

And make values-based judgments on what is the right thing to do in an operational environment.

That's not to say that clear cases of harassment would be tolerated. I'm not saying that at all. It's just allowing an environment where teams learn to work and grow together without fear of being accused of harassment.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you.

In 2009, I see that you wrote a book called, Cultural Intelligence: A Summary for Canadian Forces Leaders. Obviously, you're of the opinion that leadership really is the key to solving this problem. Without having read your book—I apologize—would you say that's the premise, that it's really all about leadership and setting the right example?