Status of Women Committee on May 28th, 2013

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much for your information. It has been extremely interesting listening to you. Many of the things that you have said I have heard at round tables around the country, discussing the whole issue of sexual harassment or harassment in the workplace. As long as everybody turns a blind eye to it, it will continue, no matter what policies you put in place. So I appreciated many of the comments you made.

I'd like to expand a bit more on the issue of.... You talked about passive coping. Some of the issues that have come out recently here in Canada—lawsuits and so on—have come from women who have been in the workforce for a very long time and then, finally, can't handle it any more and then leave and launch a lawsuit. You mentioned passive coping. Is passive coping what many people do in the workforce? So as not to lose their jobs, they try to continue to cope with this kind of activity, which is clearly unacceptable, but they don't want to lodge a complaint.

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

Yes, I think so.

Also, for some people, they don't want to have to discuss what happened. It's awkward. It's embarrassing. There's a component to it sometimes where the person feels shame or guilt. It's something that people are uncomfortable talking about. If you're the victim or the target of the harassment, it might be easier to try to cope with it by talking to your friends or ignoring it, because that way it's not as awkward for you as having to discuss it.

There's one thing I would like to say that I forgot to mention earlier about the person that they're reporting to. There should always be the option of reporting to a woman, because if they have to report to a man, that is more of a disincentive for some people. They don't want to talk about this behaviour with a man. They'd rather talk about it with a woman.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

The second issue is the external body. Right now, it's a question of complaining through a supervisor and then there's, of course, another level where you can go and report. Other than the Human Rights Tribunal here in Canada, there are not a lot of options for you. Could you tell me what you think an external reporting force would look like, where people who have these complaints could go and would not have to be worried about the intimidation, and so on, that happens?

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

It was more theoretical when I was talking about it. I haven't thought about the practicality of it. In fact, I think it probably would be difficult to do. I was thinking of something like.... I guess when you talked about the Human Rights Commission, it's probably similar to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that we have in the United States. There's that avenue.

I don't know. I was thinking if there could be people or committees.... It could be something like someone who works for the federal government but not the division where the harassment occurred.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I agree. I think those would be arm's-length individuals who don't work in the same environment, as far as the whole organization is concerned.

Over 20 years ago when the military was having lots of issues, they were similar to the RCMP in coming forward. More and more people were lodging complaints about sexual harassment in the military, which is an issue that I think you are currently trying to deal with yourselves in the U.S.

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

Yes, we are.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

As a result of that work, DND introduced the observer intervention policy that you referred to. It's a real example of what probably needs to exist throughout the federal workplace for everyone, so that when you observe something you are obligated to report it.

Is the observer intervention policy that DND is using being used anywhere else in actual legal terms?

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

It may be, but I'm honestly not aware of what companies' policies are, for the most part.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Do you have any other suggestions that we haven't already covered off as to the kinds of policies that need to be there to guarantee, women especially, that respectful workplace?

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

No. When she was going through the four or five points I think that plan sounded exactly like what I would prescribe.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

These issues continue to be very important to all of us. I know they're important to you in the work that you do. Have you done some specific work in Canada or has your work mostly been in the United States?

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

It has been exclusively in the United States.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Have you been able to share any of your knowledge with the military right now in the challenges they're facing in the United States?

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

No, I haven't been called on to do that.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I think they'd do well if they did.

[Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry]

Thank you.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Certainly the fact you mentioned about how few people lodge complaints—

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

You have one more minute.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

—and I think when we look at trying to judge it by the numbers, for everyone who lodges a complaint probably another 10 choose to be passive and not go forward. That's really sad, but it is an issue that we need to know does happen.

Thank you very much for your evidence today.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you, Madame Bowes-Sperry.

Thank you, Madame Sgro.

Madame Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before Madam Bowes-Sperry goes, I did want to put something on the record. I wouldn't want her to be misinformed.

Madam, in virtually all workplaces—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Madam Chair—

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Madame Mathyssen, I have a question from Madame Bateman.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Madam Chair, a point of clarification. Does Ms. Mathyssen still have time to ask our witness questions?

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Bateman. Actually, I thought that Ms. Mathyssen was raising a point of order.

Do you have a point of order, Ms. Mathyssen?