Status of Women Committee on Nov. 4th, 2014

[Janice McDonald]

As Ms. Archer said, I do believe that skilled trades are an important opportunity for women, but I think it's interesting that as more women are getting their liberal arts degrees, they're finding that they're getting paid less.

I will also say that I think a liberal arts degree has never been more important than now. Things are so complex, and we need thinkers. That's what a liberal arts degree provides. That's my bias. I think it's important.

I think education is still very important, and I think women thrive in the education setting. Work is not an educational setting. It's very much more challenging, and it's more difficult for women to perhaps get the pay they deserve and that their education reflects.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yes, I got that point too, from women taking the directors program. Most men have never taken the board of governors programs, yet they get on to boards. Now women seem to need them. That's maybe just a fact of life that we need to live with.

Ms. Archer, I thought that you brought us some valuable information today.

I looked up your program, because I had only heard a bit about it in the past, and realized that the federal government gave you $2.5 million to get the centre established. I was happy to see that, as well as some ongoing funding for some of your technology that helps people take this program at more of a distance.

What I saw too is that it has been effective with aboriginal women. I wonder if you could tell us how you're getting them in, what the retention factors are like, and whether enough women are aware that this program exists.

[JudyLynn Archer]

Awareness is still very low. I would say among Canadian women that this industry provides incredible opportunity for them and how they can get into the industry. Awareness is still something that we need to do and we'll need to do for a long time yet.

For aboriginal women, about 30% of our student population is aboriginal women. We go out and engage with aboriginal women in their communities throughout the province. We listen to what they have to say, and engage with them in the conversation about this particular opportunity. What we find consistently is that aboriginal women are very interested. However, there are challenges that they face on top of being women coming into this industry. Certainly, I think most of us are aware of a lot of those challenges.

Our process of helping women make an informed decision before coming into our programs is we deliver that process and program out in aboriginal communities so that women can go through that process of making that informed choice right there where they live. It helps them understand what they would need to do in order to come into the industry, and for those who say they're ready, we're ready to have them.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Ms. Archer and Ms. Crockatt.

Ms. Freeland, for five minutes.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I'd like to go back to Ms. McDonald.

I'd like to start by saying I really appreciate your point about the not accidental coincidence that in professions and in academic areas where we see women starting to succeed, we start to see a pay differential opening up. I felt that very much when I was a reporter in the Soviet Union. I discovered that what we would call finance directors in factories were all women and they were paid very little, and also all the doctors were women and they were paid very little. There is a social component to high-and low-paid professions.

I was really interested in your comments about access to capital, and that it is difficult particularly for women entrepreneurs. Is there anything we can do about that?

[Janice McDonald]

Change everything.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Feminist revolution, for sure, but what are our steps?

[Janice McDonald]

Yes, what are the steps?

Awareness is the first thing. I think we need to be aware that that's happening. Perhaps a separate fund that is focused on women's start-ups would be beneficial. It's not really my area of expertise in terms how to solve that; I'm just recognizing that it is a challenge and that something needs to be done. I'm not certain what the exact steps are to fix it.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Finance is a heavily regulated industry. Is there maybe some kind of reporting that we should start making obligatory just to be saying, separating out, how many loans are going to...?

[Janice McDonald]

I think any time you shine the light on a problem it can be very effective. Certainly, tracking the outcomes would be a great starting point: how many women, how many businesses, are getting funding, and how much they are being funded and how that compares to their male counterparts.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to go back to Ms. Archer in Edmonton.

I think we've all been really impressed, as I was over the summer, with the great work of your program. I'd like to ask you whether from the perspective of the work you're doing you think we should be increasing the work of apprenticeship programs and focus maybe specifically on young women earlier in their lives, maybe in high school. Is there an opportunity there?

[JudyLynn Archer]

Absolutely. Yes, there is.

I think it's the pre-apprenticeship where we need to shine the light. There's a lot of money for apprenticeship training. There is no funding for pre-apprenticeship. In getting that awareness out there, getting people, in this case women, trained up to come into an apprenticeship, getting young girls to really understand the opportunity and to consider and start preparing to come into this industry, we could do a lot there.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

That sounds really smart and intriguing. What would pre-apprenticeship training or education be? Can you describe your ideal a little bit?

[JudyLynn Archer]

Yes.

Our programs are all pre-apprenticeship, so they are, number one...trade jobs are not rocket science. The actual determining factor for a woman to be successful in the trades is to be able to thrive in a predominantly male industry. There's workplace culture, being able to understand what that looks like, how it is today, the realities of it. Also, we know from research the strategies for success. Getting that information out there so young girls can really take a look and see that they can be a project manager on a huge project, that they can earn $250,000 a year easily, that this is their career path, this is what they need to know before coming into this; otherwise they won't make it. Those are some of the things that we could do.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Do you think being really specific with young women and girls about the financial differential is something that we're not doing, and would that make a difference?

[JudyLynn Archer]

The financial piece is usually the second or third item on the list when we hear back from our graduates. The first thing they talk about is that they cannot believe the level of confidence that they have where they are now compared to where they were before. These jobs are not rocket science, but building huge projects gives you a sense of confidence that for most women takes a long time to get. You will get there quite quickly in the trades, so confidence is the thing our graduates talk about more first, and lifestyle is the second thing they talk about.

Now lifestyle costs money, but they say, “Well I now have the money to travel. I've always wanted to be a volunteer for Habitat in Ecuador. I've always wanted to do this and that and the other with my time off. I now have the financial capacity to go and do those things.”

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Archer. That was a very good answer in a timeframe that I'm looking for.

Now we're moving to a seven-minute round. We have Mrs. Ambler for seven minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you once again. I'm so glad to have another opportunity because I have so many questions for you today.

Ms. Roy, I want to thank you for your presentation. I am especially sensitive, I think, to your comments on rape culture on campus. I think we all are. It's a depressing fact of life. I know I didn't have to deal with it 25 years ago when I was in university.

My daughter is in her second year of university. I'm wondering what advice you would give her not only on rape culture on campus, but if you could take it one step further and relate it to our study, what advice you would give girls like yourself on campus today about what they can do. I don't want to lead your answer. What advice would you give my daughter about how to become successful and how to stay safe? What can she do?

[Anne-Marie Roy]

I think that when we're talking about....

I first want to address the comment about advice for staying safe. I think it's a little bit problematic when we talk about rape culture and wanting to challenge it and go to this narrative that puts the onus and responsibility for staying safe entirely on a woman. I think that having measures and teaching men not to rape, rather than telling women not to get raped, is one part of that.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Right, sorry. You know what? You're right. I didn't phrase that properly.

[Anne-Marie Roy]

Yes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

What can be done, not....

I also wanted that piece about advice for....

[Anne-Marie Roy]

Yes. I think one thing's for sure: she will face challenges throughout her time at the university. Sexism takes many different forms, misogyny and rape culture as well. I would encourage her to continue fighting and hold her head up high, despite some of the barriers that she might face on campus.

I would also encourage her to work with the administration and other women and allies on campus to pressure the administration and the institution to adopt educational programs to prevent sexual violence and also to educate folks of all genders and identities to understand and recognize rape culture, because unfortunately, it's so present in our society that I feel that some folks sometimes become a little desensitized to it. I think it's important to educate folks on what rape culture is to be able to properly identify it, call it out, and challenge it.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

I like your idea about both young women and young men taking a course at university. It's a good idea.

[Anne-Marie Roy]

I think that many institutions have failed because they are very concerned, as I mentioned earlier, with their image and the PR strategies that come around scandals relating to sexual violence. Also, institutions don't have very much of a proactive approach. That's one of the fights I'm fighting currently at the University of Ottawa. Rather than implementing measures that only penalize those who perpetuate sexual violence, I also think that an important component is to take steps to prevent that violence from happening in the first place.