Status of Women Committee on Feb. 5th, 2015

[Lana Wells]

Sure. I know lots of Canadian studies have been done on this, but there is no evidence to suggest that any kind of physical punishment actually does children good. There is an opportunity to repeal section 43 to prohibit corporal punishment in Canada. I would encourage the federal government to make that change in legislation and then to support a parenting strategy so people can understand positive discipline and how to parent. It's not just to change and repeal the section but also to ensure that there are supports to go with families.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Those are two recommendations.

[Lana Wells]

Absolutely.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Ms. Dumont-Smith, could you talk about the unique needs of shelters that would be serving aboriginal women?

[Claudette Dumont-Smith]

I do work with our colleagues at Pauktuutit, for example, and there's a grave shortage of shelters up north. I also know that in our first nations communities, there's also a shortage. As to the shelters that are not on reserve, many are not culturally appropriate and the women that live in urban centres—52% of the population now live off communities—do not feel that the shelters in the mainstream address their needs.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you.

I will now yield the floor to Mr. Barlow for five minutes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question would be to Ms. Mattoo. I appreciate what you're talking about on changing the narrative from saving the women who have been victims of violence and making them leaders. That's a great position to take and a good message for us to put out there. But you talked about the success that you've had with peer-based and survivor-based programs.

I'm just curious. Do you have men participate in some of these programs as peers, as well with other men and even as people who have perpetrated violence in the past?

[Deepa Mattoo]

Unfortunately, I have not been part of any of the projects where men have participated in a mentor capacity, if they have perpetrated violence or if they have had experience with family violence in their family unit. But I definitely feel that could be potentially a good model. We haven't seen that. It does happen informally. We know that.

In the men's support groups or in the mandated programs—counselling programs where they're supposed to go for long-term counselling when they are perpetrators—I know that those relationships are built among them in those settings. It is happening informally for sure, but I haven't come across any programs so far.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

You talked about, maybe informally, leaders in the community that are doing those kinds of things, acting as mentors to new Canadians or new immigrants to Canada then.

[Deepa Mattoo]

Absolutely, there are lots of programs, which are led by mainstream as well as ethno-specific agencies, here in the greater Toronto area that I know of. Punjabi Community Health Services is one of those programs. The CEO of that agency is Mr. Baldev Mutta and he has been leading some really cutting-edge programs in the community to educate men.

Again, as my colleague from Nova Scotia was talking about, sometimes these programs don't have to be named or titled as violence against women or violence programs. They're sometimes just about drugs. They're sometimes about gambling. They're sometimes about behavioural issues or anger management issues. They're not necessarily meant for violence against women structures, but the messaging is definite and the mentorship is definite to make sure that men understand, and are basically assisted through this process and the conditions that violence creates.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I think it's a good idea, I guess, even if it's informal that new people to Canada understand Canadian culture. They feel welcome just by having that interaction with other people.

For Ms. Wells, thank you for coming all the way from Calgary. I appreciate that. Sorry about the weather.

[Lana Wells]

It is cold here.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

I'm still not used to this Eastern Canada winter.

[Lana Wells]

There's salt everywhere.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Yes, exactly. I hope you brought leg galoshes or something. If I would have known you were coming, I would have told you to bring me some snow pants.

You talked about a national parenting strategy. I thought that was interesting, but also about the importance of building positive fatherhood. One of the messages that we've really been hearing through this process is putting more of a focus on men and the role that they play in this issue.

You talked about a program called “Caring Dads”. I'm just wondering how successful that is. You said it was pretty successful. Would you mind explaining a little bit about that?

[Lana Wells]

Sure. That's by my colleague, Dr. Katreena Scott. I'm not sure if you've called her as a witness, but I would encourage you to because she's been studying this issue for some time. It's a best practice program and it's offered in Alberta. Just to take you back a bit I'm currently working with the Government of Alberta to build a new investment and policy framework for dads and fatherhood.

When you look at the majority of parenting programs in Canada they are mostly focused on the mom as the parent. So we're thinking about the family unit that my colleagues have talked about and the need to reflect on the fact that some programs that work for women may not work for men. There are nuances and different delivery mechanisms that need to be thought of. There's some great research happening. I'm not sure if you know about the Alberta family wellness initiative that the Norlien Foundation has heavily influenced in their partnering with the Government of Alberta and the Harvard Center on the Developing Child, where they're doing some amazing work in terms of bringing the best neuroscientists, behaviourial scientists, and social workers together to build best-practice programs from early childhood development on. Right now there are three organizations in Alberta that are implementing the positive father involvement program and it's a best practice.

We're now trying to look at how we scale these. I don't think the issue is whether there are some great best-practice programs. It's how do you scale it? How do you get it to where you're actually changing population change? It takes money for implementation to ensure fidelity and to ensure the people who are delivering a program have the skills and capacities to deliver it in the way that it was designed.

The other issue is that, for example, with something that's been designed in California coming to Alberta, you have to ensure that the context reflects and it's in the program. It takes time to iron that out. So Norlien has funded this and the research has been part of the project for the last five years and ongoing, to keep evolving the program so that it makes the best sense for the parents in Alberta versus if it was in Ontario or B.C. The context is so important.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you.

I thank both of you very much.

I now yield the floor to Ms. Freeman for five minutes.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'm going to go back to where I was with Dr. Deepa Mattoo.

You've been clear that current policies and bills like S-7 are only serving to further marginalize women. Is that what you're saying?

[Deepa Mattoo]

Absolutely. I wanted to say it's not only marginalizing women, it's also marginalizing the communities they come from and targeting certain communities more so. I think it takes us away from the discourse and the reality that violence against women happens across cultures and across people's historical backgrounds, and more so when there has been a history of colonization and there has been a history of marginalization of other kinds.

Not considering violence against women a holistic issue and coming up with the discourse that there is some kind of barbaric culture in certain communities and new immigrants are necessarily more violent than people living here in Canada I think is very problematic. As I said before, the programming and the service delivery needs to be sensitive and aligned to people's distinct needs, but framing an issue and homogenizing communities, saying that they need it because they are less cultured than we are living here in Canada, is a problematic discourse and framework.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

What you were just saying makes me think. I came across an article this morning. There's a new U of T study that's coming out called “Gender equity in Canada's newly growing religious minorities” looking at workforce participation rates and the difference between Muslim women and other groups—I think Hindu and Sikh are specifically cited. It was saying that there is a perception that Muslim women are more repressed and less available to the workforce, but in fact there is no difference between these groups and that, tellingly, second generation women are just as active in the workforce.

Does that speak to some of the work that you've been doing? Does that make sense to you?

[Deepa Mattoo]

Absolutely. I think that's the assumption that we are fighting, primarily. Part of the problem is that because of the service delivery model and from the perspective of the services we need out there, we keep on asking for services that are culturally and linguistically sensitive, but that ask doesn't mean that we are saying that these communities are not civilized enough. We are not saying that these communities don't have capacity and leadership skills. I think that's where the disconnect has been, unfortunately, because we have asked for culturally and linguistically sensitive services.

So while my colleagues from Nova Scotia or my colleagues from London work in the specific Muslim communities, and while they talk about how there needs to be language sensitivity and cultural sensitivity, they are not necessarily saying that these communities are not capable and these communities are not active members of the employment and equity framework. I think that's where the disconnect is and it's really important that we keep both those things together while we're talking about it.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

All right.

I am going to ask you to describe how you would see a federally mandated national action plan to end violence against women.

[Deepa Mattoo]

As I said before, I think it needs to be a lot more inclusive in terms of how we envision a violence-free Canada and a more protective Canada for women, where women don't feel obligated to leave, report, or that you need to basically make a decision right now. We need to have an action plan that provides sensitivity in health, in employment, in other structures of education, where women don't have to necessarily go by the dominant cultural framework of how you can be violence free.

It has to be an inclusive framework, and it has to be cross-sectoral.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

Could I ask how much time I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

You have 30 seconds.