Status of Women Committee on April 23rd, 2015

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

The website's kind of the hub, and then the rest is sort of the social network.

[Sandra Eix]

Yes. The website will be the legacy.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Right, and you touched on it as well. Status of Women just launched its It Starts with One—Be Her Champion program, asking Canadians across the country to champion a women and be a mentor. I love the fact that a few of you have brought up.... Mr. Keddy's here, thankfully, today to give me some support, but it is important that we get men involved in this as well.

Sandra, do you have men as part of this program as well? Can you talk to us a bit about that?

[Sandra Eix]

Yes, that's been a key part of it right from the beginning. That was, again, something we recognized by talking to focus groups about what was wanted. It doesn't make any sense to have just women talking to just women about skills sharing and mentorship. We need to have the support of men and the mentorship of men in assorted fields. As I say, when there's only one woman in physics—and I can speak from personal experience—you need to have the mentorship of anybody, everybody, who is successful and wonderful, and that certainly includes men. All of SCWIST's events are open to men, and we do our best to recognize their support.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

And it's—sorry, go ahead, Danniele.

[Danniele Livengood]

That's part of why we are the Society for Canadian Women in Science and Technology, not “of” Canadian women. We are all inclusive, and we want male members as well. We want them there supporting women.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Great. Unfortunately we are at the point that in many industries the man has to be the one to open the door. If we get the man we're going to start to change the cycle, so I'm glad you have that part.

Suzanne and Marjorie, you talked about some of the programs you're doing. You touched a little bit on working with the school divisions. A lot of the testimony we've had through this has said we have to start at a young age.

Can you talk a little bit about working with the school divisions, guidance counsellors, and teachers to get them engaged?

[Suzanne Winterflood]

In Manitoba there is a lot of work going on to take trades into school. Equally there's STEM, but the trades side doesn't quite come with the cachet of the academics and professions. In Manitoba, of course, we have a large manufacturing sector—like Alberta—so we have to get our women in there, and they want to be in there. With the school divisions, we're linking in with them.

We are very much at the beginning of developing our resources, so we are looking at bringing people into that role to look at what's needed. Certainly for the younger students to be able to have access to understand the trades, there's the apprenticeship offering. Our offices are based within the Manitoba Institute of Trades and Technology, which puts us in quite a nice position because we can actually see what's happening on the ground. It's important.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Freeman, you now have the floor. You have seven minutes.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

I do have one more question for Kate McInturff before I move on to more subjects. Specifically I wanted to talk about how you felt about previous program spending on infrastructure and skilled trades. Did it show any progress on women's equality, specifically with regard to training, with regard to being able to access promotions and to work-life balance?

How do you see previous investments that have been made, and how would you recommend we make them work better for women?

[Dr. Kate McInturff]

I'm in favour of infrastructure spending and always happy to see more investments in infrastructure and in public transit, which women depend on very heavily in our major cities.

I think in terms of job creation, we need to recognize that infrastructure spending is going to stimulate jobs in male-dominated professions. So if we're looking at job creation this year, if the job creation is happening in construction, as it is—and women make up 20% of that field—then the job creation is mostly going to go to men, which is fine; but what we need to see is a kind of parallel investment in job creation particularly in industries where women work, where the wage gap is smaller, and where the pay is better.

For example, if you invest heavily in infrastructure and in resources in manufacturing, as we've seen in Alberta, for example, you see also that there isn't a kind of a parallel investment, at least not on the same scale, in health and education where women tend to work and to experience less of a wage gap. It's not that women aren't working there. It's just that they are working in service and hospitality industries where they are making much lower wages, and they are much more likely to have temporary work, so they are in a less economically stable position.

I wanted to come back a little bit to the opening up of student loans, which is fantastic, of course, but I think one note of caution is that because of the wage gap, there is clear evidence that women take longer to pay off their student loans. That means the cumulative interest they pay is greater. Essentially the wage gap means that, when women take out loans, they are paying an additional tax on their education because it takes them longer because of the wage gap.

The loans are excellent. I would never say anything bad about them. It's fantastic. But I would say it would also be useful to think about grants and bursaries targeting women, because those grants and bursaries aren't going to come with the same tax that women bear because of the wage gap at the other end, when they are having to pay that back with a lower salary, with a lower offer of $60,000 instead of $89,000.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That's really interesting, thank you.

I'm going to open up my next question, or area I'd like to hear more about, to all our witnesses because I think we've all spoken about this. Specifically I want to talk about the safe and secure workplace. You've all raised the fact that there is a hostile work environment sometimes, and that is a major hurdle we need to address in male-dominated workplaces, and a lot of workplaces where women have been traditionally under-represented. Even on Tuesday one of our witnesses from TechGirls brought up the issue of micro-aggressions. We don't even realize it but sometimes it's little things like “Well, you should have smiled then”, which seem harmless on their own, but realistically it comes from a place of seeing women in certain roles.

I'd like to hear from all of you on your recommendations on how to change not just the workplace culture in terms of encouraging mentoring and encouraging women to seek these jobs, but also in creating safe, secure workplaces that are free of harassment for women.

[Suzanne Winterflood]

Within the trades I think simply because it's on the shop floor and you're out in the field. If you work for a hydro company you're in the middle of nowhere, so there are a lot of considerations around what that looks like as far as hostile goes.

We've had women who have said things that range from they're treated like their daughter, their sister, their niece, or whichever, and the men are very comforting, saying, “There, there, dear, it's all going to be good and fine.” That isn't necessarily seen as hostile, but it's a barrier that's a problem. We're talking about strong women who want to be in manufacturing, in the non-traditional trades. They're humping around wherever, and it's, “Oh please, dear, let me help”, that sort of thing. In those situations it's very much around trying to work with.... It's dangerous. To “educate” men is always scary because that's exactly what they're scared of—“Oh, we have to behave differently because you're a woman, and women want to come in, and that's all too much hard work.”

We run a focus group with men so it's about trying to change that integrally, and I think my colleagues here alluded to the same things. It's about educating men and educating women on how to interact with men. Let's admit that there's a two-way thing here. From a hostility point of view I think it's really about education. It's about supports and it's very much about reporting safely. Women ask, “If something is done what are the repercussions if I report that? Do I lose my job? Do I get scared? Do I get more hostility because it's a guy I'm reporting to?”

In Manitoba Hydro they have a woman HR representative dedicated to their women in the field, out wherever. They have a website for their women so that women have somebody designated at head office to be able to report issues to and she deals with that on their behalf. So that's a really good, promising practice there.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you; that's all the time.

Mrs. Sellah, I believe you wanted to raise a point of order.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I did, Madam Chair. Thank you.

I would like to raise a point of order about some remarks by our colleagues.

I think that they are relatively new compared to other colleagues of ours. Because of the respect that is owed to our guests and to ourselves, I find that comments of that kind are tantamount to a gratuitous attack on our chair, who is neutral in the extreme, and respectful.

In my opinion, this kind of partisanship should have no place in a parliamentary committee. I feel that we should trust and respect our chair and those who are assisting her.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Sellah.

I have taken note of that and I thank you.

In fact, under the motions that we have adopted for the work of this committee, it is always important to adhere to the time allotted to each member. However, there is always a little latitude. It is sometimes difficult to stick to the time allotted to each member. Luckily, I am not in the NHL and this is not an overtime period between the Montreal Canadiens and the Ottawa Senators. Here we have some manoeuvring room. Mrs. Perkins' remark was valid, but we are still always trying to do things properly.

My thanks to the guests who joined us today. Your presentations were wonderful. The discussions were very stimulating and the perspectives were very varied. It will enhance our study remarkably well.

Let me remind committee members that we meet again next Tuesday to continue our work.

Have a good day and a good weekend.

The meeting is adjourned.