Status of Women Committee on May 4th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Everyone is back, so we'll begin our consideration of the motion that we were discussing the last time we were here. For those who don't remember what it was, it was that we would conduct a study on midwifery starting on May 6 for three meetings.

Is there discussion on the motion?

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Gladu.

I am very proud to be able to participate in the work of this committee, which you chair. I have great respect for your work in Parliament.

I am here this morning to encourage my colleagues to give their approval to begin this important study as early as Thursday. The dismantling of Laurentian University will have national implications, and I am very concerned about the midwifery program.

I want to encourage my colleagues to work together at this time, considering the importance of dealing with the crisis in the midwifery program at Laurentian, and to make it a priority so that we could begin on Thursday.

I want to give my colleagues a sense of just how important it is for us to do this work, and I trust my colleagues understand the importance of it.

Tomorrow is the International Day of the Midwife, so I think we all carry an even bigger responsibility. For national midwives' day, let's do something right. As someone whose three daughters were delivered by midwives, I've seen the incredible impact and positive health benefits.

What the Laurentian program did was that it made midwifery possible in the region, in rural regions, in francophone communities and in the Far North communities. Where we've had very low and poor health outcomes for many years, the midwives have been real game-changers. I'm thinking of communities like Attawapiskat and Fort Albany where, when young women are pregnant, they are flown out without family to distant hospitals where they have to stay because they don't have birthing services in their communities. To have midwives in those communities not only makes the birthing experience much more holistic, but it's such a better system and it alleviates massive costs we see in the far northern communities.

This program played a huge role. I'm thinking of the midwifery program at the Centre de santé du Témiskaming in New Liskeard, a francophone midwifery program for rural women. It's really important. This is the only program of its kind in Canada. When we heard about the cuts, we were all so shocked because this is a program that brought its own funding. This had nothing to do with the mismanagement by the Laurentian University board. To cut this program made no sense, but its impacts are huge.

I was talking to a student who'd come from Grande Prairie, Alberta, to study at Laurentian. Why did she leave home, rent a place in Sudbury and come to take this program? Number one, it was a world-class program, but number two, she said, was because this was the one program that understood what it would be like for her to work in a rural region so she could go back to Alberta and bring that expertise.

The decision to cut this program was done so arbitrarily that we had midwives—students—who had no ability to take their placements. They need insurance to be able to get out in the field. There was suddenly no insurance. One midwife professor was fired in the middle of her class. What kind of disrespect is that? We have to do better in our university programs, but the idea that they could put this program under CCAA protection and hack it apart, leaving midwives with no capacity or ability to get out in the field and do the work they had come to be trained for....

I think it behooves us as a committee to study this and to get a report to Parliament as quickly as possible. I want to give a shout-out to my provincial colleagues Jamie West and France Gélinas who've been pushing. We understand the provincial government will be stepping up, but I think it's still important for us to lay the parameters of what we need to do to protect this program.

Certainly I'm speaking on behalf of my colleague Lindsay Mathyssen who's been very involved in this. I'm asking my colleagues. We need to get this midwifery study started as early as Thursday. I'm hoping we can get everyone on side on this, so we can move ahead.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

Yes, the plan, as per Monsieur Serré's motion, is to begin the study on the 6th of May.

Monsieur Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all my colleagues on the committee who want to address the important issue of Laurentian University and the midwifery program. As has been mentioned, the current situation facing students, faculty, staff and the entire Laurentian University federation is truly unacceptable, and I want to reinforce that message.

Not only am I an alumnus of Laurentian University, but two of my three daughters were born with the help of a midwife, so I recognize the importance of the university. I also find the elimination of university programs such as the environmental studies program, the midwifery program, and the program related to physical activities to be troubling and unacceptable.

Over the past several months, our government has been following the issue very closely. In particular, the member of Parliament for Sudbury, Paul Lefebvre and I have been very active, both in Ottawa and locally, in seeking a solution. I would like to thank Minister Joly for her direct engagement with ministers Mulroney and Romano at Queen's Park, and Minister Monsef. I would also like to thank Minister Freeland for adding $121 million for French-language services in the budget. We'll come back to this a little later, but the federal government does have a responsibility for French-language post-secondary education.

We were at the table and we will continue to work to see what can be done to enrich the program and enable its continuation.

As we know, the province has a very important role to play in the ongoing court process, as post-secondary education is a provincial responsibility. So we hope to see a plan developed by the province shortly that will address ways to retain the trilingual institution of Laurentian University and support the midwifery program.

It is important that the federal government be at the table and that we find a solution together.

Let's be clear here. We have been at the table to try to find a solution, but obviously the court proceedings that Laurentian has undertaken are troubling. It has caused great concern for the community, the teachers, the students, the faculty and for the community at large. We have to find ways together to get a solution. We're really looking forward to this committee influencing and hopefully providing some solutions, some suggestions, and to seeing the provincial government coming up with a plan that we can support.

Again, I encourage all members here. As we indicated before, we are clearly supporting this motion and we want to ensure that we have the necessary time—three days—set aside. I want to thank our colleague Ms. Mathyssen for putting this forward too, but we have to pull out all the stops here because it's really upsetting to see the court proceedings. These court proceedings are very damaging to the reputation of the university. We have to find ways together to help the students and the faculty of the midwifery program but also of Laurentian University in general.

Thank you for putting this motion.

Thank you, Madam Chair, for letting me have the time to speak on behalf of my region, because it's affecting a lot of us. We have to find solutions together and make sure we make this a strong program moving forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Madame Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I would like to mention that this is interference in the areas of post-secondary education and health, which are Quebec and provincial jurisdictions.

Moreover, there were other motions before this one. I received the list of motions, which I reviewed prior to today's meeting, and I saw that there were motions tabled prior to this one. So I'm wondering why we are considering this motion at this time when other work has already been started.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we go to Ms. Hutchings.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to follow up on my colleague Mr. Angus's points.

I appreciate his passion for indigenous groups, being in a rural part of Canada and seeing how health care is stressed in rural and remote and indigenous communities, and how important this is, how important the facility in Laurentian is. I can't speak for Ms. Mathyssen or Mr. Angus, but we've addressed many studies that were not on the original roster. Of the studies now, this one is especially crucial because of the court proceedings against Laurentian University.

I think when we look at rural health care, when we look at women affected in rural areas and how important this program is from coast to coast to coast, as my colleague Mr. Serré said, we'll support it. I'm looking at how we can expand this program. We all know how difficult it is to get health care in rural and remote areas, and this is one way to help women at what should be one of the happiest times of their lives, giving birth and bringing new life. We need to make it as stress-free as possible.

I'm fully supportive of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Indeed, as a new grandmother I am as well.

Monsieur Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, it's a mistake. I forgot to turn off my raised hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

No problem.

Is there any further discussion on the motion? Otherwise, we will vote on it.

Let me read it for you while I'm just checking, so you know what it says.

Monsieur Serré's motion is:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the committee undertake a study of midwifery services across Canada, of not less than three meetings, starting on May 6, including the ramifications of the elimination of Laurentian University’s midwifery program and strategies to ensure that access to health services is maintained.

(Motion agreed to)

I would ask that the committee members submit their witness lists to the clerk as quickly as possible. I know we had a few that were suggested already from Ms. Mathyssen, but we'll do what we can to make sure that on May 6 we can get some of them here.

Ms. Sahota.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Madam Chair, I have a motion that I would like to move.

I move:

That the committee extend its current study into sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces; that the committee invite Zita Astravas for one hour, Lieutenant-General Carignan and Leah West to appear together for one hour, and the Provost Marshal for one hour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Hutchings.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question on my colleague's point. I understand that we've all heard gut-wrenching testimony, and I know we're looking for solutions. Does the member have any days? Is this a day or a day and a half that she's suggesting?

We all want to see this report done so that we can see the solutions enacted. We want to see the report tabled. We've heard from some of these witnesses before, but do we have a time frame suggested? If there are just the three witnesses, is it a day and a half or just a day that she's looking at?

Again, I always think of the clerks and the translation services and everything that goes on. We're into May now. We do have a lot of work to get done. I know how important this is, but can we just have some clarification on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Sahota, can you respond?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

It is a day and a half. We're starting with the next study, Ms. Mathyssen's, on Thursday. We can let Madam Chair and the clerk come up with possible dates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I want to advise the committee, though, that because of all the reports we're trying to get in—we have the pay equity one to finish, the unpaid, the rural, the defence report and the Laurentian one now—we would have to add two meetings in the break week, on the Tuesday and the Thursday.

Madame Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to propose an amendment to Ms. Sahota's motion.

The motion calls for the committee to hear witnesses for three hours. I would like to add one witness to the list, which would allow us to hear witnesses for two full meetings. I would like to add to the motion the name of Mr. Guy Chapdelaine, chaplain general of the Canadian Armed Forces. He has heard personal accounts and would be an interesting witness to have. He could tell us about what survivors may have experienced.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We'll have discussion on the amendment, which is to have Guy Chapdelaine, chaplain general of the Canadian Armed Forces, come and testify about witness experience, so that the motion is now for two meetings.

Ms. Hutchings, go ahead.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm just wondering. You alluded to how our days are getting shorter and shorter. Would we consider adding some time to one of our sitting days already? Instead of two hours, we make it one, or instead of a day and a half, we'd do two longer sessions and get it done in one session.

I'd be willing to do that, if that's up for consideration from anyone. I know we need to get this work done so that the incredible analysts we have, who are now probably tied in with their fingers and their toes, can get some of this done and we can move on with the great work that we're doing.

Can we have a discussion about that? I know I'm willing to sit longer on the appointed day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We have flexibility, depending on the availability of a room. The clerk, the analysts and I can talk about that and have a meeting. We can come back with a proposal of what the options would be, whether we have to add an hour to a bunch of different meetings in order to fit all the panels in, or whether we could extend on one day and have it on that day.

I could commit to doing that and bringing it back to the committee.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to make two points.

First, I want to clarify that the first motion was not mine. I suggested changes to it, but it was Ms. Mathyssen's motion. I wanted to make sure that was clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes, it's clear on the record that Ms. Mathyssen moved it, and that the improvement you brought was to start on May 6.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Excellent. We are very much looking forward to supporting it.

Second, we agree with the Conservative motion that the committee devote another meeting and a half to this study.

That said, Madam Chair, can you see how the schedule could be arranged, as Ms. Hutchings mentioned, so that we do not have meetings during the week we spend in our ridings with our constituents?

With respect to the witnesses who have already appeared before the committee, I wonder if it is necessary to invite them again. In that regard, I would like to hear from the members of the committee here.

In short, we can give ourselves a little bit of flexibility, but we need to make sure that after this meeting and a half, or as soon as possible, we will make a final report with concrete recommendations and then submit it to the House. We need to make sure that we make solid recommendations that will move this issue forward, but more importantly help victims and survivors.

We would be happy to see this happen as quickly as possible, but inviting additional witnesses might also be a good idea, so we will support the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes, I can explore options for the committee to complete its studies. I will share this with the committee members via email.

Is there any other discussion on this motion?

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor.