Status of Women Committee on April 11th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm going to get this meeting started. We have lots of business to get to.

Welcome to meeting number 103 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Today, our witnesses are online.

I'm sure the clerk has already shared with you that you can choose your language of choice, whether that be French or English. We ask that you mute and unmute your microphone, depending on whether you're speaking or not.

I'll remind everybody in the room to make sure that the earpieces stay away from the microphones, as there will be a negative impact for our translators.

I'll remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. If we have a speaking list, I'll be sure to get your names.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, November 27, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the implementation of the red dress alert.

Online today, we have two excellent witnesses coming to us from the Greater Sudbury Police Service. We have Clee Lieverse, detective constable and missing person investigator, and Darrell Rivers, constable.

We've provided five minutes for both of you together, since you are both from the Sudbury police force, but we will have until 4:30 to ask our questions.

I'm going to pass the floor over to both of you. Decide which one of you is going to take the floor. You have five minutes. When you see my arms start flailing, wind it down.

You have the floor.

[Detective Clee Lieverse, Detective Constable, Missing Person Investigator, Greater Sudbury Police Service]

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members.

First of all, I appreciate the invitation to speak on the important topic of the red dress alert today. I acknowledge that we're the only police service speaking here, or at least, we're the only one that I've been made aware of.

For those who aren't aware, the city of Greater Sudbury covers a land mass of approximately five times the city of Toronto, while it's home to only about 160,000 people.

The Greater Sudbury Police Service acknowledges the historical role the police have played in Canadian history. I also understand why some don't want my police service, or any police service, involved in this important endeavour. However, we all need to be partners in this red dress alert in order to make it more effective.

I encourage family members, community members and community partners to conduct welfare checks on their loved ones when it's appropriate. However, if community-based efforts fail to locate a person, the police should be involved at the earliest possible stage.

Members of police services have investigative resources that members of the general public simply do not. Ontario and several other provinces have an act of legislation, such as the Missing Persons Act, that can be utilized by police officers to obtain the information that wouldn't otherwise be available. We're able to utilize this investigative tool to access information such as cellphone records and financial records, and medical records when appropriate, as well as Internet records. These investigative tools are available only to members of the police service, and are used solely to locate missing persons and ensure their safety. We also have records from other police services from across the country and, when necessary, we can reach outside of Canadian borders.

Early access to these investigative resources brings a higher likelihood of the best possible outcomes when searching for a missing person.

When—not if—this red dress alert system becomes available, I see it as being a valuable resource to assist in locating your loved ones. In order to be effective, I believe the system needs to be tiered. It needs to be scalable from a local to a provincial and then a national alert when the situation calls for it. It needs to be flexible to address the needs of both the local community and the nation as a whole. It needs to balance the privacy of a missing person with the need for assistance from the public. The system needs to use clearly defined risk factors, indicating when an alert is utilized and what the level and scope of that alert would be.

We need to grab the attention of the public with these alerts when they're sent out. We also have to take into consideration alert fatigue. We need the community to engage and provide whatever information or tips they have to move the investigation toward the best possible outcome.

Now I'll hand it over to our indigenous liaison officer, Darrell Rivers, to speak further on community engagement.

[Constable Darrell Rivers, Greater Sudbury Police Service]

Aanii, Madam Chair, and committee members. My name is Constable Darrell Rivers. I am the indigenous liaison officer for the Greater Sudbury Police Service.

The city of Sudbury has one of the largest growing indigenous populations in Canada and the fastest growing in Ontario. According to StatsCan the city of Sudbury will have the largest urban indigenous population by 2036. There are approximately 22 first nation communities within a two-hour drive of the city, which makes us a hub to access various services in northern Ontario.

In order for the Greater Sudbury Police to best serve the community we live and work in community engagement has been a priority. All police services need to be involved from the onset of every missing persons investigation. The Greater Sudbury Police Service has a long-standing relationship with our indigenous community and agencies since the late nineties when the need for an indigenous liaison officer was identified and also a body of indigenous representatives from various indigenous organizations within the city.

From that our indigenous advisory committee was created. Over the years this committee meets quarterly with our chief of police to discuss issues and challenges from the community and work collaboratively to identify opportunities for solutions. From this co-led body a grant was received and a committee was created to raise awareness within the city through community initiatives and police officer training. One of these initiatives from this collaboration was the creation of the “Indigenous Women and Girls Missing Persons Toolkit and Resource Guide”.

At the conclusion of this project a monument was created. An approximately 15-foot aluminum red dress with the words “no more stolen sisters” in the centre of it was placed on the side of the building of one of our community partners. I am the third indigenous liaison officer to sit in this role and benefit greatly from those who came before me. It is imperative that all police services across the country build, and/or rebuild, trust with the community so that when the red dress alert system becomes active it can be a more effective resource to assist police in locating loved ones.

Meegwetch for your time and opportunity for this presentation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much for coming here with your testimony today. We will be starting with our six-minute round. Each party will get six minutes to ask questions.

I will start off with Michelle Ferreri from the Conservatives.

Michelle, you have six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you so much to our witnesses for this important study.

The first question I would ask is what your current biggest obstacles are in Sudbury. You're both with the Greater Sudbury Police Service. When we have these missing indigenous women or girls, what would be the biggest—

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I'm not hearing anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

One second please.

I will pass it over to the clerk.

One moment please.

We are going to suspend to ensure that everything is working.

We are back to our meeting. Thank you very much. Our issues have been fixed. We will start this round over again. I'm going to pass the floor to Michelle Ferreri.

Michelle.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Let's try this one more time.

Thank you for being here and for being part of this really important study. As police officers, you're going to be a very important piece of this discussion.

Currently with the Greater Sudbury Police Service, in terms of ensuring that they are brought home safely, what would you say are your biggest obstacles, without this red dress alert, when that critical time happens when you have a missing indigenous woman or girl?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I would say our biggest obstacle when we need that immediate action is the delays associated with putting out our release and having it picked up by the media and then forwarded on to the general public, unless we're dealing with an Amber alert, which obviously goes though a different system. That's where the delay is. While it only might be minutes in the middle of the day when mainstream media is at work, if we put out a release at 2 a.m., it may not get picked up until 8 a.m.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

That is interesting. With regard to the delay, if I understand correctly, you're at the mercy of the media to release whatever you have. You have social media now, which I know a lot of the police in my region rely on heavily, but when you're in rural communities, or you don't have great Wi-Fi, that isn't always reliable.

Is that what I'm hearing?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

We put it out on our social media. We use Twitter—or X—and Facebook as our two main platforms, but if you're not following us as a police service, you're not going to see it. We encourage family members and other community members to forward our posts or take screenshots, but you're still relying on someone paying attention to someone else's social media. It's not going out to the whole public in general.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Do you find there is a lag in reaching out to the police to report a missing person, indigenous women or girls in particular?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I think we've had great success here, and we have good relations with our community. I do know it is an issue. I have had community members here whose loved ones are in a different service area, and either they are hesitant to go to that police service or there are some other barriers in place. It is not a universal barrier, but it is a barrier that does exist.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It sounds like you have worked very hard to establish important relationships and trust, as I think you said in your opening statement, and that is also critical to this discussion.

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I'm going to give all that credit, or most of it, to Constable Rivers and his predecessors, but it is something we work on every day. I work particularly closely with our child welfare agencies. We have three indigenous agencies here in the city, and I work with them and our kids every day.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for that.

I think one of the biggest issues we have had with this study—and I liked how you said it's not a matter of if but when—is the logistics, which is what we really want to carve out in the status of women committee. How do we roll this out? How do we effectively ensure the right person, people or organization is in charge of the red dress alert? Which person or organization should be responsible?

You're here today from the Greater Sudbury Police Service, and you pointed out some concerns about ensuring it is rolled out effectively. In comparison with the Amber alert, what do you think would be the most effective way this alert system could be rolled out?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

We have spoken about using a tiered system of alerts. Starting at the lowest level, there would be a sort of closed system, which we use right now within our community service agencies, our shelters and our friendship centre and other organizations like that. When somebody goes missing, we literally send an email to those places so they are aware of the person, and then they can reach out to us. These are generally people whom we deal with on a more regular basis.

I love the idea the witness from Nova Scotia, I believe it was, talked about with regard to the Amber alert-like system there, in which more local alerts go out to those who are subscribed to it as a second tier of alert. The general public has the option to know a lot more as there is a lower threshold for sending that alert out. The highest level of alert is reserved for when there is some concern for serious bodily harm, death or, in police lingo, foul play. That is sent out much like an Amber alert to everyone over multiple streams, including TV, radio and cellphones and is reserved for capturing everybody's attention when it's actually used.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I'm curious what your stats are, if you have them, for murdered or missing indigenous women in the Sudbury region.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Our time is up, so I would ask both gentlemen to send in some of that data, if they have it. That would be fantastic.

I'm now going to turn the floor over to Marc.

Marc, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses of the Greater Sudbury Police Service for the work that you do in my hometown.

Thank you for explaining to the committee what the Greater Sudbury Police Service has done since the 1990s about trying to gain trust with an advisory committee, a dedicated constable and training an officer.

Just quickly, for my first question, what is the composition of your advisory committee that meets with the chief on a regular basis?

[Cst Darrell Rivers]

Our indigenous advisory committee comprises members from various indigenous-run organizations within the city. We also invite the three indigenous child welfare agencies and school boards. Each school board has indigenous support workers. We utilize them a lot.

They meet directly with the chief or senior leadership quarterly. We provide updates on the programs and initiatives that we're planning. We get their input. They bring concerns from the community to the table and relay that information directly to the chief.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

As you indicated, there are 22 first nations within about two hours. Northern Ontario has 110 first nations, so there is a lot of work to be done with the communities.

I want to follow up on my colleague Michelle Ferreri's questioning about the Amber alert. I want you to give the committee some context.

In northern Ontario, like many other regions in the country, there is the Anishinabek Police Services based out of Sault Ste. Marie; in North Bay, there's that police force; there's also the OPP in other areas outside Greater Sudbury, and then you have the city police.

How do you interact with the three when you're looking at human trafficking and missing indigenous women? How does that fit into that tiered system for alerts that you talked about?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I like to say that we have a really good working relationship with the services around us, especially when it comes to missing indigenous people and females in particular.

The closest relationship would be the OPP, which surrounds us. We also have the UCCM police on Manitoulin Island, as well as the Wikwemikong Tribal Police.

If we have information that a missing female is headed that way, might be that going way, has family in that place or simply has been there in the past, we generally have no issues obtaining assistance from that service, even if we don't need them to do anything in particular.

Right now, we use what we call zone alerts, which are targeted messages to police services. If I think someone is headed to Sault Ste. Marie, I can send a zone alert along the highway hitting every detachment and police service between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie. If I think they are heading to Toronto, I can go from here to Toronto, so that everybody is on the lookout for that female, vehicle or whatever we're looking for.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

We had Pelmorex at the committee.

Do you know about the SOREM committee, which is the committee of public safety services for all the provinces? Are you aware of that group nationally or in Ontario?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I am because of what the witness from Pelmorex said.