Status of Women Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much, Philip.

I can tell you that in terms of Keira's law, we're still going to work on that. I think we're meeting with Jennifer, which is fantastic. We have some great and important things coming up.

We have two last questioners.

I'll pass it over to Andréanne Larouche for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Boisvenu for his earlier testimony.

And thank you for having come Mr. Viater, because you also experienced the death of a child.

Ms. Tremblay and Ms. Jeanson, thank you very much. I always hesitate to congratulate you on your strength or your courage, because I'm not sure what you would really like us to retain from your time here. Your testimony about your own experiences was heart-rending, and we are here to listen to you and try to do our best as parliamentarians to change the way people think. It's surprising to hear about the extent to which we are in a period of violence and rising extremism, and how it all impinges on the erosion of women's rights, including instances of coercive violence. That's my impression.

My question is for the three witnesses: Mr. Viater, Ms. Tremblay and Ms. Jeanson.

Sometimes words are important. There are several troubling aspects to these cases of violence. For example, there is the loss of confidence in the system because of concerns about whether anyone will be listening. Then there is the question of conflicting descriptions of what happened, particularly in instances of assault and violence between intimate partners.

We have clearly heard the message about electronic bracelets. However, I'd like to take a broader look at domestic violence. Might it be better to combine the terms "coercive and manipulative violence" and "domestic violence" to enable as many victims as possible to report their abuser without having to wait until they have bruises on their face?

[Martine Jeanson]

Women don't report their abusers. I can tell you that because I'm with them on the ground, working with them in their homes. I'm not at a shelter. Everyone knows that abusers are arrested and then released. You can see it on television and hear it on radio. So women are afraid to report their abuser and don't want to do so because once he is released, he will automatically return home. I see that in my files. One such example is a man who tried to drown his wife in the bathtub, I mean really tried to drown her. He was arrested, released immediately and went straight back home to his victim.

That's why women don't want to report their abusers. But if they knew they would be listened to, and if they began to see electronic bracelets being used and decisions favourable to women, they might conclude that if they were to make a complaint, their abuser would have to wear a bracelet and would not return to attack them afterwards.

If we feel protected, we'll report our abuser. I say "we" because we represent these women. Right now, we can't report abusers. Even today, I wouldn't feel anymore inclined to report my abuser because I would be afraid. I've seen firsthand the police arrest men like this only to release them two minutes later. But if the abusers are wearing an electronic bracelet, we'll have protection.

[Diane Tremblay]

I'm going to add something else. Right now, it's the women who are imprisoned. I spent three months at Maison Unies-vers-femmes. I didn't have access to my children. They weren't allowed in because they're boys. I'm not making this up. I had no access to my life, but he had access to his, as if he hadn't done anything.

As Senator Boisvenu and Ms. Jeanson were saying, what message is being sent? Men are being told that they can beat up a woman, murder her, frighten her, bully her, and abuse her as much as he wants; she's the one stuck inside. Yet he is still free, living his life and assaulting other women. That has to stop at some point.

The Criminal Code hasn't been changed for a very long time. I've read that there wasn't any legislation to protect women in 1982. And here we are now in 2023. When I say women, I mean women and children, and indigenous women. It's important to do something on their behalf too, because they need protection. They live in a rural setting. It's time to do something about it. Something should have been done a long time ago.

Today, I would like you to listen to us and address our needs. We have a right to live and a right to our freedom, as do our children, our parents and our friends.

[Martine Jeanson]

The group of 100 women, and everyone we work with, are simply waiting for you to pass the bill. That's all they want. The group still exists and is wondering whether there is any progress and where things stand right now.

If you approve this bill, you will be giving them hope for freedom, being able to live their lives and feel free. We have the right to be free and to have protection. You alone can do it. We have no power. All we have is the ability to come and ask you today to support this bill so that we can live freely and safely. Only you can do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to pass it over to Leah for the final round.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Stories are powerful, but I know they're hard to share. I just want to honour all the witnesses today for sharing their stories.

I really want to focus on a couple of things. One of the issues I have—I know you spoke a lot about it, Martine—is about the need for therapy for men.

Actually I'm going to go back, and then I'm going to follow up with that.

In terms of policing, we're dealing with this with the Red Dress.... Would you agree with me that, particularly when women come forward with these acts of violence, they're often minimized by policing or wherever they're reporting? Would you agree?

Diane or Martine can answer that.

[Diane Tremblay]

You're absolutely right.

Among other things, I remember the first time I reported an assault. I was asked whether he had hit me. I said that he hit me here, there, and that he had raped me. What more did they want? What about internal injuries? Yes, I was physically struck, but it doesn't always start that way. Things escalate, and that needs to be taken into account. When I went to the police station to tell them what was happening, they pointed out that there were no signs of injury. Come on, what kind of an answer is that? There are injuries, internal ones.

I often went to the police station to report and make a complaint, because my spouse never complied with his conditions. I remember on one occasion when a policewoman asked me what he had done. I was on edge because it had just happened. I said that he had grabbed me in a particular way, and I tried to demonstrate it on her. She told me not to touch her. All I wanted to do was show her what and how I had just experienced. I wasn't actually going to act it out. I did it automatically, and ended up being rebuked by the policewoman.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That brings me to another point, because I have limited time and I think what you're sharing is pretty critical. Would say that you don't get a proper response and often the response is not trauma-informed?

You're saying you experienced violence and you were in shock, and the response by the authorities was often not trauma-informed by what you were going through as a victim of violence. Would you agree with that?

[Diane Tremblay]

That's right.

[Martine Jeanson]

Every time we report them, we're asked what evidence we have. We never have evidence even if we call them 10 times to report what's happening to us.

The one thing we really want is the bracelet. We know that people won't always listen to us. We know that nothing can be perfect. And yet I'd rather have something imperfect than no protection at all, which is what we have now. We have nothing at all.

The more factors added to the system, the more consideration we will be given and the more people will understand just how serious it is. The more evidence we have, the more we will be believed and heard.

[Diane Tremblay]

We'll also get more respect.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm running out of time.

I think you are right about violent men. Treatment is really important. Right now, a lot of the response is to put them in jail. They get out of jail, and they're more violent and more angry. They haven't had therapy. I think you need to deal with the roots.

Do you think the way it's currently dealt with in the criminal justice system, in terms of putting people in jail without proper therapy, is ineffective? Do you think it would be better to put them...? You were talking about a treatment place where people can deal with trauma and violence.

[Martine Jeanson]

A therapy centre is certainly better than prison. In prison, abusers are there with other violent men. They collude with one another. The whole time they are there, their brain is working overtime, thinking about where we are, the people we're with and what we're doing. When they get out, they are even more violent

If instead of sending abusers to prison, they were first sent to a centre for three months of intensive therapy, their anger would decrease. There would be conversations, they'd be given resources that would certainly calm them down. Prison does nothing but increase violence. That's always been the case.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Would you say that many folks that get involved in the justice system...? Do you think that more underlying mental health issues need to be dealt with?

If you deal with the underlying mental health issues, you would deal with the violence. Would you agree with that?

[Martine Jeanson]

Let's talk about mental health. I'm an expert, as a caseworker. When I go to the courthouse, the judge listens to me and takes note of what I've said. On the other hand when the abused woman speaks, the judge doesn't listen and doesn't hear. It's one-on-one. We caseworkers are the ones who go to court to explain the work we've done with the victim. The judge listens and starts to take us seriously.

We watch the judge all the time when the victim is speaking. Honestly. I spoke about it to Senator Boisvenu before coming here. When I was in court in Lac-Saint-Jean, I said in colloquial French to the judge, "il l'a neyée dans le bain" and all she had to say about it was that you shouldn't say "neyée", and that the right word is "noyée".

When we tell you that the system doesn't listen to us and that we need you, it's because we really need your help if we are to be taken seriously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Unbelievable. I'm sitting up here just in shock.

We're actually at the end of our testimony today, although I believe we could probably listen to this group of people—you ladies and Phil and everybody else—for hours on end.

Thank you so much for the incredible testimony that the three of you have brought today.

Thank you very much, Senator Boisvenu, for bringing forward this bill and bringing forward witnesses who have this experience.

Before we leave I have two really quick things. I need to seek approval for a budget of $17,750 for Bill S-205. Does everyone agree?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. We are spending that money. If we need to discuss further, we can schedule committee business, but I would be looking for any amendments that you would want for Bill S-205 to be in by next Wednesday, November 29 at noon. That's where we were going. Does that sound good, everybody?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Seeing no further business, I would like to thank Diane, Martine and Philip so much for being here. If there's additional information that you want to send in, we would love to hear it. Thank you very much.

Today's meeting is adjourned.