Evidence of meeting #15 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Marin, my question is very simple. I may be getting ahead of the others, but what do you think about a senior ombudsman with associate ombudsmen?
There would be one main ombudsman and associate ombudsmen handling different departments, such as the Department of Veterans Affairs.
4:15 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
As I indicated in my opening remarks, there was a bill in 1978 to create a federal ombudsman position that would have taken a similar form. There is no doubt that an ombudsman is lacking at the federal level. There is a federal ombudsman in Australia and in England. All the provinces of Canada have an ombudsman. There is no doubt that an ombudsman is lacking at the federal level.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
Do you believe we have the required skills, either in Quebec, Ontario or in any other province, to hire a good Canadian ombudsman, without having to go and look at the work of an ombudsman in Australia, in England or elsewhere?
Do we have enough skills and expertise in this field?
4:20 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
There are examples throughout the world. In my opinion, all the Canadian provinces have excellent provincial legislation.
I think we have to start by looking at what is being done in the provinces. Quebec’s Public Protector Act is excellent.
In fact, in Quebec, the jurisdiction of the ombudsman was just expanded to cover healthcare, hospitals, etc. So Quebec is ahead of the Ontario legislation, but the powers are similar.
4:20 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
Quebec is even ahead of the Ontario legislation, but the powers are similar.
In Alberta, the authority has just been extended to hospitals.
In New Brunswick, the Ombudsman’s jurisdiction has just been extended to complaints against the youth protection agency.
Each province has an excellent model. If the committee opts for this route, I think we have resources in Canada, in all the provinces, to help you in your mission.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Marin, you know I was one of the people who insisted you appear before this committee, because I valued the meetings we have had in the past enormously.
I want to raise a specific problem. Do you remember the fine report you produced on the pensions of retired veterans who, when they were in the army, did not pay income tax and, when they left the army, paid income tax. In a word, it was a mess! That report is still on hold. To some extent, it may have been the beginning of the deterioration of your relations with the Department of National Defence. I congratulate you for producing this famous report; it was a good one.
I raise this issue to ensure my colleagues present here understand that an ombudsman cannot, does not have the right to bite the hand that feeds him or her. Your boss, at the time the general who is now at NATO was in power, was the Minister of National Defence. You dared to bite that hand and, I’m sorry to say, you were told your contract was not being renewed.
If you do not want to comment on that subject, it’s up to you. I don’t want to put you in an awkward situation politically. It's a personal comment I’m making mainly for the intention of the people present today.
4:20 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
I would just like to clarify what you said somewhat. I am aware that it was you—I read it in the minutes—with the support of some of your colleagues who took part in the discussion, including, of course, Mr. Stoffer, who insisted I appear before this committee. I greatly appreciate the committee’s invitation. I think you have fulfilled your functions very impressively and I congratulate all of you.
An ombudsman has to have the courage of his convictions. He has to make decisions that are not always popular. In my case, I was appointed during good behaviour. I reported to the Minister. However, there was an opening for the position of Ontario Ombudsman in December 2004. I applied for the position and left my former position. My position as Ombudsman at National Defence was not supposed to end until June 2006. It was a political appointment and, at that time, a different party was in power. Although some generals didn't like me, that did not necessarily mean that their decisions would have had an impact on the new government.
In any case, I just want to say that I agree with you that it's not a popular position. You have to have the courage of your convictions. Recognizing that, you have to be able to provide the structure required for the office to be able to work and succeed, right from the start. You must not pull the rug out from under it.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Marin and Ms. Finlay, for coming here today. This has been great. For lack of a word, straight talk is always good to hear, and it's also good to see our young people who have come with their parents to listen today as part of take our kids to work day, especially when we're talking about veterans.
Can you tell us about any other jurisdictions that would follow the format or the model you promote?
4:25 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
What I'm promoting is what is referred to as the classical ombudsman model. It's a parliamentary model. In England you have the U.K. parliamentary ombudsman to take complaints regarding U.K. institutions. You may want to go to the United Kingdom. They have had a very well-established ombudsman's office for the last 40 years. It's an ombudsman of broad jurisdiction.
Every single province in Canada has enjoyed a classical ombudsman for provincial affairs for over 30 years. So it's a tried and true model. I've tabled the Ontario legislation with the committee. There's one exception--Prince Edward Island--but otherwise every other province has enjoyed it. I think this committee should at least have a look at that legislation. Typical objections when you raise the subject of an ombudsman is that it wouldn't work in our system. Well, these are provincial ombudsmen. They work in common law systems; they look at all types of things provincially. They will work federally, there's no doubt about it. There's no veterans affairs in provincial ministries, but so what. You have ministries of justice, schools, hospitals. It's so wide. Whatever applies in those areas will apply for veterans affairs, and I would strongly urge the committee to look at those models.
And yes, you are correct, there are three young people here, and I just want to introduce them briefly. Connor Ling is my stepson, Mercedes Marin is my daughter, and Katherine Jones is here as well. They're very proud to be here and follow their parents here.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
I think that's great.
In terms of the workload, you have been involved at DND and as the Ontario ombudsman. Have you any idea in terms of workload comparison?
4:25 p.m.
Ombudsman of Ontario
On the workload, in my former job I believe we were dealing with about 2,500 cases a year. I think that's probably a good indicator of the caseload you would expect at veterans affairs.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
So it was much smaller than what you're dealing with.
