Evidence of meeting #19 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roger Winzenberg  Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual
Lyndon Anderson  Military Attaché, Australian High Commission

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Good afternoon, everyone.

We have witnesses from Australia who are here to present. Mr. Roger Winzenberg is from the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs. We also have Lieutenant-Colonel Lyndon Anderson, military attaché with their high commission here.

Gentlemen, you have 20 minutes.

Mr. Winzenberg, I assume you'll be starting and the lieutenant-colonel will join in at some point. You may structure it in whatever way you wish.

In the way it generally works, we'll give you 20 minutes. After that we have a prescribed situation, where it alternates among various parties for seven minutes, five minutes, etc., for questions and what have you, and it potentially lasts until about 5:30.

We're encouraged to hear what you have to say. The floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Roger Winzenberg Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have an opening statement. Lieutenant Colonel Anderson doesn't propose to speak, so I'll use the time I have

I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to present to you today, and hopefully I can assist your deliberations in terms of establishing a veterans ombudsman for Canadian veterans.

I am an officer of the Australian Department of Veterans’ Affairs. I'm appearing here today with the consent of my departmental secretary, which in your language is deputy minister.

The information that I am about to provide is general information about how the Australian system works. It is based on publicly available information and on my experience working in four Australian government departments. It is important that you note that I am not a representative of the Australian ombudsman's office; I am currently in Canada on an exchange with the Canadian veterans department for 18 months. As I said, over the next few minutes I will go through my notes on how the Australian system works.

The office of the Commonwealth Ombudsman was established by the Ombudsman Act 1976, and is administered by the Prime Minister. In 1971 the Commonwealth Administrative Review Committee issued a report recommending the establishment of a Commonwealth Ombudsman. The committee proposed a new and distinctive system of administrative law in Australia. It envisaged that the ombudsman would play a part, along with courts and administrative tribunals, in examining government administrative action.

The office commenced operation in 1977. It is 30 years old next year. Since then, there have been seven Commonwealth Ombudsmen. The current Australian ombudsman is Professor John McMillan. Although I talk about him in my paper, the ombudsman previous to Professor McMillan was Ms. Philippa Smith. We have had both genders in the office.

On the role and functions of the office, the office of Commonwealth Ombudsman exists to safeguard the community in its dealings with government agencies and to ensure that administrative action by Australian government agencies is fair and accountable.

The ombudsman has three major statutory roles: complaint investigation, which is investigation and review of the administrative actions of Australian government officials and agencies upon receipt of complaints from members of the public, groups, and organizations; own-motion investigation, on the initiative or “own motion” of the ombudsman, of the administrative actions of Australian government agencies, often arising from insights gained from handling individual complaints; and compliance auditing, which is inspection of the records of agencies such as the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Crime Commission to ensure compliance with legislative requirements applying to selected law enforcement and regulatory activities.

The complaint and own-motion investigation roles of the ombudsman are the more traditional ombudsman roles that constitute the bulk of the work of the office. The guiding principle in an ombudsman investigation is whether the administrative action under investigation is unlawful, unreasonable, unjust, oppressive, improperly discriminatory, factually deficient, or otherwise wrong. At the conclusion of the investigation the ombudsman can recommend that an agency take corrective action. This occurs either specifically in an individual case, or generally, through a change to relevant legislation or to administrative policies or procedures.

A key objective of the ombudsman is to foster good public administration within Australian government agencies, ensuring that the principles and practices of public administration are responsive to the interests of the public.

The Commonwealth Ombudsman can consider complaints about almost all Australian government departments and agencies and most contractors delivering government services to the community.

The Commonwealth Ombudsman wears the hats of six other ombudsman roles. First, he also acts as Defence Force Ombudsman, handling grievances lodged by serving and former members of the Australian Defence Force. The Defence Force Ombudsman can investigate complaints about administrative actions and Defence Force employment matters. The Defence Force Ombudsman cannot investigate actions connected with disciplinary proceedings or the grant or refusal of an honour or award to an individual. The DFO investigates complaints from serving members only after they have exhausted internal grievance mechanisms, unless there are exceptional circumstances. The DFO also investigates complaints from ex-service personnel or their families.

The ombudsman also wears the hat of the immigration ombudsman and handles complaints about the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs, with specific responsibilities in the area of reviewing cases of persons held in immigration detention for more than two years.

He also acts as a postal industry ombudsman, handling complaints about Australia Post and private postal operators.

He also acts as the taxation ombudsman, handling complaints about the Australian Taxation Office.

Under the Complaints Act, he looks at complaints about the Australian Federal Police, and he also acts as the ombudsman for ACT, which is the Australian Capital Territory. The ACT is like a province in Canadian terms, but it's a very small province, so the Commonwealth Ombudsman acts as their ombudsman as well.

On the organization and structure of the office, the national office of the Commonwealth Ombudsman is in Canberra, which is our capital, if you weren't aware. He also has offices in each of the provincial state capital cities. The ombudsman and the two deputy ombudsmen are statutory officers appointed under the Ombudsman Act, and the staff are employed under the Public Service Act. The government of the day makes a recommendation to the Governor General to make those statutory appointments, and the staff of the office come under the Public Service Act. Total staffing for the office in 2005-06—our financial year is 1 July to 30 June—was 143 people, and the office had a budget of approximately $18 million. I've attached a copy of the structure to the back of this, which I'll go through at the end.

In terms of investigating complaints, following a complaint from a member of the public or using own-motion powers, the ombudsman may investigate the administrative actions of most Australian government departments and agencies and private contractors delivering government services. The ombudsman cannot investigate the actions of government ministers or politicians, private individuals, state or local governments, most employment-related matters with the exception of those relating to the Defence Force Ombudsman, the actions of some government business enterprises, and decisions of courts and tribunals.

The ombudsman can decide not to investigate complaints that are stale or frivolous, for which the complainant has not first sought redress from the agency, for which some other form of review or appeal is appropriate, or for which he considers investigation would not be warranted in all the circumstances.

The ombudsman may conduct a complaint investigation as he sees fit. The powers of the ombudsman are similar to those of a royal commission and include compelling an agency to produce documents, and examining witnesses under oath. Most investigations are conducted with minimal formality. Ombudsman investigations are private, and details are generally not revealed to people who are not legitimately concerned with the investigation. Following an investigation, the ombudsman is required to consider whether the actions of the department or agency were unreasonable, unlawful, improperly discriminatory, or otherwise wrong.

In terms of recommendations and reporting, when the ombudsman concludes that an agency has erred, he may report that view to the agency and may recommend whatever remedial action is appropriate. The ombudsman has no power to force an agency to do what he recommends. However, the ombudsman can make special reports to the relevant minister, the Prime Minister, and the Parliament, or release a public report. In 2005-06 the ombudsman released public reports on seven own-motions and major investigations. The reports contained 51 individual agency recommendations, and of those 51, agencies accepted 49.

The ombudsman submits an annual report each year to the Prime Minister, which is required to be tabled in each house of Parliament within 15 sitting days of receipt.

Just to give you a feel for the number of complaints handled last year, I can tell you that the ombudsman handled over 17,000 individual complaints and approaches that were within his jurisdiction. Approaches to the office ranged from simple contacts that could be resolved quickly, through to more complex cases that required the formal use of the ombudsman’s statutory powers.

Of the 17,384 complaints received, 35%, or 6,176, required investigation. Of the 6,176 issues investigated, there was agency error identified in 1% of issues, and no error or deficiency in 11%. In the remaining 88% of issues, the complaints were resolved without the need to determine whether there was agency deficiency or error. Eighty percent of all approaches and complaints were finalized within one month, and 93% within three months. Fifty-four percent of the investigated complaints and approaches were finalized within one month, and 81% within three months.

In terms of the causes of complaints, the majority, 58%, of the complaint issues finalized by the ombudsman's office related to correctness or propriety of a decision or action of an agency. The remainder of the finalized complaint issues, 10%, were about procedural matters, such as the accuracy or completeness of advice given by agencies; the timeliness of agency action, 8%; the application of a policy to the complainant's circumstances, 6%; or the conduct of officers in agencies, 5%.

Given that you have a particular interest in the Department of Veterans' Affairs, I've included a bit about the complaints in relation to DVA. In 2005-06 the ombudsman received 276 approaches or complaints in relation to the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs. Of these, 253 complaints were within the ombudsman's jurisdiction, which was an increase of 25% on the 2004-05 figure.

The volume of complaints has been around the 200 mark over the last three to four years. The spike last year was due to a particular issue involving the resealing and desealing of F-111 aircraft, which is a particular set of issues to do with the Australian context.

Of the 253 complaints and approaches received, 112 were classed as category one approaches. These categories--category one, two, three, and four--are the categories the ombudsman uses to classify complaints. The 112 were resolved without investigation. Outcomes included decisions not to investigate and referrals to another appropriate agency or authority. There were 42 of the 253 complaints and approaches that were classed as category two, which were approaches that could not be resolved as category one. They require further internal inquiries or research or more information from the complainant. They are resolved without contacting the agency. There were 66 of the 253 complaints and approaches that were classified as category three. DVA was contacted, and an investigation was conducted. There were 46 of the 253 complaints and approaches classed as category four. They required further investigation, as the complaint approach was not able to be resolved within category three.

In Australia we also have a Veterans' Review Board, which is similar to the Canadian Veterans Review and Appeal Board. I've included some information on how the ombudsman interfaces with the Australian Veterans' Review Board. The Veterans' Review Board is a statutory body whose role is to provide independent merit reviews of certain compensation and pension benefits paid by the Department of Veterans' Affairs.

The VRB is a specialist tribunal with the power to make new decisions. The ombudsman has no role in the VRB’s adjudicative functions and the conduct of hearings. He will investigate matters relating to the administration of applications for review by the VRB’s staff. In 2005-06 there were no complaints or approaches to the ombudsman, but in 2004-05 there were two complaints.

I've included a schematic about the structure of the ombudsman. I think the point to take from the structure chart is that there is only one ombudsman, notwithstanding that he wears six hats. He's assisted by two deputy ombudsmen. The three of them, as I said earlier, are statutory appointments. They are recommendations by the government of the day to the Governor General to appoint the ombudsman. I think the legislation allows a term of seven years for the Australian ombudsman, and he or she can be reappointed after that term expires.

Sitting under the two deputy ombudsmen are in effect six units that are headed by a senior assistant ombudsman. The senior assistant ombudsman is responsible for a group of portfolios within government. If you look along the chart, the third senior assistant ombudsman from the right has responsibilities for public affairs and international; taxation, which in your terms would be the Canadian Revenue Agency; and defence, which includes the Department of Veterans' Affairs.

If there's a complaint about the Department of Veterans' Affairs and it's reviewed by the ombudsman, it goes through that senior assistant ombudsman's group, and he or she would finalize it. Then it gets signed off by the deputy ombudsman or the ombudsman. In effect it's a sort of secretariat, but a whole-of-government secretariat that looks after all of the Australian government's agencies at the federal level.

I might add that like you, we also have state or provincial ombudsmen, which are created in the same way. They're legislated and report to their parliament.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. I'll be happy to answer the committee's questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I think we have a lot more meat on the bones now, regarding how it's structured in Australia. I appreciate that.

Mr. Rota will be the first for the Liberals, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you, Mr. Winzenberg, for being here today. Listening to you was very interesting.

One of the discussions that has taken place at this committee level for the last little while is whether to have an ombudsman who is attached to an existing ombudsman, so that there's just a branch of, say, the defence ombudsman.

What you have in Australia seems to be a completely different system from what we have here, where you have one ombudsman for the country, with different departments. It seems to be a very flexible system. Is it very difficult to add an ombudsman for different areas, or is it a lengthy process? What kind of experience have you had in the past with the ability to be flexible?

3:50 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

The first point to make is that when the government of the day set up the ombudsman back in 1977, the approach was that since Australia was a relatively small country, with a population today of 20 million—as against your 32 million—for economy of scale and efficiency reasons, they created a whole-of-government ombudsman to deal with the totality of the federal government.

Over the years successive governments have added additional responsibilities to the office of the ombudsman, and over the last couple of years he has assumed the specific roles of immigration ombudsman and postal industry ombudsman. So I think there was a staffing addition from 2004-05 through 2005-06 of 40-odd people to pick up those additional roles. As governments broaden the role—it hasn't been compressed, it's gotten broader—they add staff and resources to the office.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

There are different sections under different senior assistant ombudsmen. Do they act as silos, or do they share information? Is the information fluid?

The reason I ask is that one of the points that came up with us was that if you have a military ombudsman and a veterans affairs ombudsman, often what happens is the information will start in one place, usually in the military, and then flow through later on when the person retires or leaves the military, and it ends up being a veterans ombudsman.

I was wondering, how does the information flow from one department to the other, or do they actually act as silos and not allow information to flow back and forth?

3:50 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

As I said earlier, I'm not representing the Australian ombudsman; I'm dealing with public information.

As I understand it, a lot of the agencies the ombudsman deals with need information specialists, practitioners, to deal with them. So the easiest way to do that is to create those units within the ombudsman's office. But at the end of the day, it's the ombudsman who signs off on the public reports and signs off in terms of the inquiries and investigations.

As I understand it, the ombudsman moves staff around within his office to meet the changing demands as they occur, but fundamentally there's a starting point of the six units that underpin the major portfolio responsibilities he deals with.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

You mentioned also that it was administered by the Prime Minister's office. In Canada, we're looking at different modes of implementing this, possibly by Parliament itself, or through the minister to Parliament.

Tell me how it works with the Prime Minister being the main office and administrator. I'm not sure how to ask this, but has there been any wrongdoing, or has anything come up over the years, where the ombudsman reports to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister obviously would have certain powers over that individual, being the person who appoints him?

3:55 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

Firstly, the ombudsman is established by legislation and he is appointed for a seven-year term and that's signed off by the Governor General.

The ombudsman, in terms of deputy ministers--or secretaries, as we say in Australia--is taken to be the equivalent of a permanent head of a department, and in that sense he reports to the Prime Minister. However, in the legislative sense, he has the ability under the legislation to table the reports he produces in Parliament. And indeed, the legislation mandates that the Prime Minister will table the annual report in Parliament within 15 sitting days of its receipt.

The best way to characterize it is that for administrative purposes the ombudsman reports to the Prime Minister, but in terms of the function of the office and the production of reports, they're produced publicly and laid before Parliament.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

So they're independent.

3:55 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

Yes.

And I might add, the power of an ombudsman is always in the exposure or the production of the public report, and that's where the power of the ombudsman emanates from.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Who decides who appoints the ombudsman? Is it done independently as well, or is that done through—

3:55 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

It's a recommendation of the government of the day to the Governor General. It's a statutory appointment that the Governor General.... And we have a similar constitutional system to you, with the Queen as the head of state and the Governor General as the representative of the Queen. So it's signed off by the Governor General.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

One of the statements you made early in the presentation was that the ombudsman recommended that the agency take corrective action. I was wondering, what kind of enforcement power does the ombudsman have, or is it just a recommendation that it makes?

3:55 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

The Australian ombudsman is in the traditional mould of ombudsmen around the world, in that he is a person who makes recommendations and suggests solutions. He has no power to make decisions or overturn decisions. The power is in the production of the report. And as I said earlier, in terms of the major recommendations in his public reports from 2005-06, agencies accepted 49 of the 51 suggestions.

It's a pretty brave agency that would not accept a recommendation of the ombudsman, unless there were pretty solid grounds not to do so. The only occasions I'm aware of when they don't accept the recommendations is when there may be legislative or legal reasons why things can't be done.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

When he comes up with a solution—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

There will be more time later on, sir.

Now we're over to Monsieur Perron with the Bloc.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Good day, sir. Thank you for coming here today.

I would like to take up where Anthony left off.

You said that the ombudsman is appointed by the Governor General. In Australia, is the Governor General appointed by the Prime Minister, as is the case here in Canada? In this country, the Governor General is appointed by the Prime Minister's Office. How does it work in Australia?

3:55 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

Thank you for your question.

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but the characterization of how the appointment occurs is that the Prime Minister of the day provides advice to the Queen, and the Queen formally makes the appointment.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

I'd like to avoid a problem. It is customary in Canada -- and my friends are going to throw stones at me for this -- to fill all senior positions through a prime ministerial appointment. Consequently, these are often political appointments. What matters is not the qualifications of the appointee, but rather his political influence.

I'd like to convince my colleagues here that the ombudsman should be appointed either on the recommendation of a committee or subject to the approval of the House or that the position should be filled following a competition process.

What are your views on this process?

4 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

I described how it's done in Australia.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Is it just as bad as here?

4 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

How Canada or the Canadian government wishes to do it is really up to you.

I would add that under the Australian government legislation, the ombudsman can only be removed with cause. Most ombudsmen who have been appointed over the years, both at the federal level and the state level, have been very much people of integrity. They have been widely seen that way by the community and have generally enjoyed bipartisan support across the political spectrum. The Australian experience is that it would be unlikely that the government, at either the provincial or state level or the federal level, would appoint somebody to an ombudsman position if they wouldn't be seen to have the necessary integrity to be accepted in a bipartisan fashion.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Once the ombudsman has been appointed, our House of Commons -- I don't know if you use the same designation in your country -- cannot intervene in the selection process. All we can do is wait one year until the ombudsman has tabled his report to the prime minister. MPs have access to the report fifteen days later.

Is that more or less how it works in your country?

4 p.m.

Australian Department of Veterans Affairs, As an Individual

Roger Winzenberg

In Australia, our House of Commons is called the House of Representatives, and we have a bicameral system like you do, with a Senate.

To the extent that the government of the day is made up of a majority of members of the House of Commons or House of Representatives—I know you have a minority government at the moment—it's that government that makes the recommendation to the Governor General on the appointment. It's fair to say that the members who comprise the government have a say in who's appointed, through the government.