Veterans Affairs Committee on March 29th, 2007

[Rob Walsh]

Mr. Chairman, to respond directly to the member's question regarding your wanting the most effective way to do it—and I understand your concern about boards, including courts, and how that would be burdensome on the process—it's my view, and some in the field might disagree, that unless ultimately there is a court there, you're not going to get the bureaucrats' attention. Do you know what I mean? In a sense, you need them as a backdrop; you need that as an ultimate. You don't want to have to have the veteran relying on that from the get-go, because that's just too burdensome and too cumbersome. But you ought to have it there so that if you don't make this work, that's where you could end up.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I understand that's a last resort, and we have to have that. I just don't want that interim period to be where it's actually just going to end up at the board anyway, with that attitude.

[Rob Walsh]

Correct.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Whatever we do, we don't want that. I would say this committee doesn't want that.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No more deny and delay. We want to help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right.

Now over to Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Walsh and Ms. Mortensen.

On your assessment of where the committee is, that we do want to make this work for the veterans, do what's best for the veterans without creating any further cumbersome, intimidating level of bureaucracy, I have two questions.

Is there a bill of rights that you know of that isn't supported by or doesn't have some type of legal obligation?

[Rob Walsh]

There might be a bill of rights in some private associations or clubs. But no, I don't think there's anything that one purports to have enforceable that isn't somehow legislation or quasi-legislation.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

There's some kind of legal standing behind it.

[Rob Walsh]

You'd have to have it.

Do you know of any?

[Melanie Mortensen]

In doing the research for this appearance, I have seen, for instance, in some of the veterans associations there's an example--unfortunately, I can't recall the name of the association--of a bill of rights that was set out, and it was available on their website. Now, it may be that was set as an example or for discussion purposes, but it would be questionable, I would say, whether that had any legal effect.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

You've laid out the spectrum as to where we could go with this. We do want to make this the most practical and legitimate way. If there's any sense that veterans' rights are being bridged or not respected--a veteran realizes that the information he has shared with the department has in fact not been secure and certain people have been talking about his case and information has been passed along, or if he's six months into waiting for a benefit, there is no benefit there, and he's frustrated with calling the office and not getting any satisfaction and he's reluctant to call his MP.... So we need the mechanism now.

Would you suggest that he go straight to the ombudsman? What's the next step?

Is that what we're looking for here, folks, the next logical step? The ombudsman will stand behind this charter. I think that's what we're looking for. Are there triggers? Would it be better if we set time limits, or is that a whole other box of headaches that we're creating here?

[Rob Walsh]

Mr. Chairman, the ombudsman, or an officer like the ombudsman, is what you're looking for as an intermediary between the veteran and the bureaucracy. The scenario you describe, which I gather is not an unusual one, is one where simply the veteran has found himself or herself ineffective in bringing any response from the government. Let's not forget many of these veterans are simply not in a position...they are not here in Ottawa.

The Veterans Affairs department isn't situated here in Ottawa, is it, entirely?

[A voice]

Charlottetown.

[Rob Walsh]

Right, Charlottetown.

So they're not in a position to deal with it. Yes, going to an ombudsman-type person to act as an intermediary is important. That ombudsman in the legislation could have these bills of rights as his context, his criteria, by which he represents the veteran, and the ombudsman, in effect, is calling upon the government to act in accordance with these bills of rights. The ombudsman is, in effect, seeking to enforce these rights on behalf of the veteran--I think that's true. It's a fairly simple process, subject to resources being adequate to the demand, and it should be an effective one. Certainly if the response to the ombudsman is inadequate, the ombudsman is in a position, as an independent third party, to bring public attention, if necessary, or parliamentary attention to the fact that despite his or her efforts, the veteran's needs were not addressed or not taken seriously, as the case may be.

So I would think you might have a mechanism there.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

There has to be a filter mechanism. There has to be a filter on the other end of that as well. If the veteran comes into the office with a problem, the lady says, “Well, take a seat”, and he says, “I'm not taking a seat, I fought for this country, you're abusing my....” I'm just saying on the front end there has to be a....

[Rob Walsh]

When the veteran was in the army, he got in line, didn't he? When he gets to the ombudsman's office, you have to trust the discretion of the ombudsman to respond appropriately and to service veterans with respect. Mr. Cuzner, I thought you were going with the idea that maybe we have to be concerned about eccentric demands upon the ombudsman.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Yes, or even nuisance files.

[Rob Walsh]

Yes, nuisance files. You have to trust the ombudsman, and the language and legislation could be there for that purpose, to have the authority to deal with those cases and not feel obliged to follow up on complaints that in his judgment are either frivolous, vexatious, eccentric, or simply don't have enough merit to warrant further attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Cuzner, while I do love the exchange, unfortunately your time is up. Perhaps you can wait until a further time.

We do have a Bloc space, if they wish.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In other words, Mr. Walsh, instead of pursuing legal action, a veteran who is dissatisfied with a situation could have his problem settled either by the ombudsman, or by invoking the provisions of the veterans' charter. Is that correct?

Either the ombudsman or the charter would have the final say.

[Rob Walsh]

If a veteran can choose between the ombudsman or some other recourse provided for in the Charter, then there needs to be a mechanism in place to ensure respect for the rights conferred by the Charter. Who is going to ensure that rights are respected? Either the courts, or a tribunal of some kind. Either way, the veteran will have to choose the course of action he wishes to take.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So then, the logical choice would be for him to turn to the ombudsman for assistance.

[Rob Walsh]

I think so.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you. You've answered exactly...