Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Well, then, you'll get another chance.

All right. Now we're on to Monsieur Gaudet with the Bloc Québécois for five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Stogran.

My questions are usually quite simple, but they mean everything. I'm going to ask you one: are you a veteran?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I am indeed a veteran, by any definition of the word, through service in special duty areas, or merely having taken my retirement from the Canadian Forces.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I ask that question because, this week, we heard the testimony of a man who has worked in the Canadian Armed Forces for 20 years but who is not considered a veteran. He has been coping with post-traumatic stress disorder for a few years now. He came to meet with us on Tuesday of this week. We want to pass a motion later to submit the report on this subject to you.

I don't understand what you mean. Are all former military personnel veterans?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, as was mentioned by one of the members of the committee, former members of the Canadian Forces who have finished their engagement and who have retired are considered to be veterans.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So I'm going to put my question differently. Is there an ombudsman who defends former military members? Veterans have the Canadian Legion, in particular. They have an ombudsman and all the rest. How is it that former military personnel are constantly forced to provide proof and that there is no one to defend them? The witness who appeared this week has been trying for seven years to prove that he is sick, but no one is defending him.

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure I understand.

The lack of an ombudsman on behalf of a past member of the Canadian Forces is being referred to. I'm in that position now, and I certainly would take that on with a sense of urgency.

We've had upwards of 150 complaints come into the office in the last two weeks. It's almost like changing the tire on a moving car. We're trying to address the most compelling ones, with a view to making an impact in the short term, so with this particular individual, the office is open for business.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You will definitely receive the report soon. We're going to send it to you. The Canadian Armed Forces have no program designed to defend those who leave the Forces. Some of them went to Bosnia, Haiti and Afghanistan, but, since wars weren't involved, mountains of paperwork have to be completed in order to prove that they are veterans and that they are entitled to a pension.

In fact, my question is simple, no one defends these people. You're being appointed special advisor or ombudsman, but that's not very important. I want to know whether you are actually going to defend these people or whether it's the department that you're going to defend.

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I'd rather not respond to the question. I am the veterans ombudsman. I've made my statement that their cause is indeed my commitment.

There's no question that a person in need who has served overseas, whether it was the so-called peacekeeping missions that were out of sight, out of mind, when we were bringing body bags back home anonymously in the old days.... In my experience, I was shot at, shelled, spat on, and had knives pulled on me. I was detained as a so-called peacekeeper. There are probably not many people around who have more compassion for the plight of these personnel, many of whom came back under different terms before we started establishing the OSISS clinics, before the Canadian Forces started getting involved in operational stress injuries in a big way.

At the risk of speaking outside my particular mandate, it's my understanding that the Canadian Forces, in their treatment of occupational stress casualities, are also reaching out to those former members who may have slipped through the cracks in the past.

All I can say is that all the retired members of the Canadian Forces, especially so-called peacekeepers--and I shouldn't be singling them out--should all understand that I have an empathy for what they went through in the watershed years of the 1990s.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Gaudet, your time is up, I'm sorry. You're already over. That's the way it is.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You're going to find out what real life is like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

They all agree to these times to begin with--

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I want to tell you that your experience is convincing. I congratulate you. If I'm still here in a few years, I'm going to watch you go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

They all agree on the times to begin with, but then when you try to enforce them, they all get...anyhow.

All right. Now we're back over to Mr. Shipley and the Conservative Party, for five minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Colonel and Ombudsman, I really appreciate the fact that you're here.

That's secondary, quite honestly, to the fact that we now have an ombudsman and that we have someone like you, with your credentials--someone who has been active and is so open to talking to people about your experience for us to understand, and you want to move ahead in an efficient manner.

I'm glad we have moved ahead with this position. Obviously it's a position I think should have been in place many years ago, but no one took the initiative to make that happen. I'm glad we're here.

With the number of applications you're talking about, I'm suspecting we will see some sort of a peak over a period of time. As we have talked with witnesses, people who have been in front of us on a number of events, from VIP to post-traumatic stress disorder to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board--all of those--there really has been an issue about having someone to speak for them, so I thank you for that.

Do you feel you do not have the latitude in your position to do your job?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, to an extent I addressed that in the discussion of the mandate earlier, in that I consider the absence of specific direction or guidance to be an opportunity and not a constraint.

In terms of latitude, I see all sorts of ways that I can value-add in ways that are more than just between the lines, but right off the page of the mandate as written.

I may come across as talking tough, but I want to keep that bit of a rough edge. The people who work in the bureaucracy on behalf of Veterans Affairs Canada I detect are genuinely concerned about the welfare of the veterans, and it's very easy, I think, to get drawn into their paradigm. It's my intention, as much as possible, to remain focused on the plight of the veterans and to allow my staff to work the mechanisms of government, so that I don't get drawn into a set paradigm and so that I can expand the latitude within the legal limits.

The major restriction in the mandate as drafted is that I have to operate within the law. The decision-making process is under legislation and is in fact law, so the short answer is no, at this point in time, I don't feel any restriction on my latitude.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Colonel, in your comments there was a bit of a preamble, but you would make a rapid decision-action cycle a high priority of your office, recognizing the overlaid amount of bureaucracy. Can you touch on how that's actually going to happen? We may hear it, but we want some comfort that actually, for the veterans, it may happen.

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, once again, we're still in the formative and I'd say philosophical phases, but I think I can address the member's question satisfactorily.

As I've said, to date we've had some degree of success in standing up the office, but I must say that the staffing process has been painfully slow. We're still formulating the terms of reference that allow us to get the calibre of people we want in the office. Suffice it to say that the general concept of operations we're looking at is to establish what I would refer to in a very generic sense as intake officers, who will, in the first instance, make contact with the veterans or the clients, if you will--the broader veteran community--who are seeking our services, and maintain contact with them in a personal way. I suspect that if Monsieur Côté's experiences are any reflection on the way we'll be doing business, a large part of their job will be simply referring the client to the proper place to resolve the problem.

Within that decision cycle, if you will, any problems that can be handled in a fairly immediate fashion will be handled within that intake cycle. It won't be until we identify perhaps a series of complaints that might indicate a larger systemic problem that we'll actually go to formulating specialized teams with a more focused mandate. The intention is to solve things at the lowest possible level and empower the staff to make decisions rather than to seek the guidance of higher levels of authority.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Fair enough, thank you.

Now we're back to the Liberal Party.

Mr. Temelkovski, five minutes.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming to us today. Also, I'd like to thank you for your service to Canada.

I'd like to ask you a number of questions very fast. Has the position been advertised within Canada. Are veterans aware of the position yet, and how is it being done?

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, to understand the question correctly, is the fact that I have taken up the post been advertised, or is it in terms of the hiring?

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Yes, in terms of your taking the post, promoting the position.

[Col Patrick Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I get the impression, certainly on the feedback I'm personally receiving, that the veterans community at large is certainly aware of my taking up the post. I think because of my notoriety with Afghanistan, aspects of the media that wouldn't normally be interested in the appointment may have taken it on. So I'm confident there is a good awareness, an understanding that the ombudsman's office is open for business. Indeed, if the number of complaints we've received thus far is any indication, then we're off to a good start.

[Lui Temelkovski, Liberal, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

You're stationed in Ottawa. Will you be able to travel across Canada to meet concerned parties?