Evidence of meeting #14 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was insignia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Audrey O'Brien  Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
David Monaghan  Curator, House of Commons
Kevin Vickers  Sergeant-at-Arms, House of Commons

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to get our meeting under way.

We have some esteemed guests with us today: Audrey O'Brien, the Clerk of the House; Mr. Kevin Vickers, the Sergeant-at-Arms; and Mr. David Monaghan, the curator.

Of course I have fond memories of the first time I was sworn in, and Audrey O'Brien was the one responsible for that, so I will have eternal precious memories regarding that issue.

I should mention that the Clerk of the House, Madam O'Brien, has said she will have an opening statement and leave the rest of the discussion with Mr. Monaghan and Mr. Vickers. I think that would be adequate, and I assume that would be okay with the rest of the committee.

If that's the case, and you need to get on to other responsibilities, we'll let you open, Madam O'Brien.

3:30 p.m.

Audrey O'Brien Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members, I'm very pleased to be here this afternoon to follow up on a conversation we basically started with the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs almost a year ago, on June 10, 2008, when Mr. Speaker Milliken and I appeared before you to talk about the business of possibly decorating Room 112 North, such that it would be a welcoming place for veterans to come and testify and that they would recognize themselves in this room.

As I said, I appeared with Mr. Speaker Milliken at that time and suggested that the curator of the House of Commons, David Monaghan, and the Sergeant-at-Arms, Kevin Vickers, would be in charge of actually pushing this project forward. I understand from David and Kevin there have been discussions, and they will be able to tell you more about their proposal in a moment.

I just want to flag two things for you. First of all, as most of you know, there is a major renovation of the Parliament buildings that is under way. It is, I have to say, primary on my list of things to be anxious about. This is the long-term vision and plan for Parliament Hill. You see scaffolding on various buildings and so forth.

Progress is being made on the renovation of the Parliament buildings, but our planning takes into consideration the fact that Centre Block will eventually be closed—this certainly won't happen tomorrow or next year—and operations will move to another location during the renovations.

So by virtue of the fact that the long-term vision and plan eventually will mean that the Centre Block will be closed and parliamentary functions and operations will be moved to another building, then obviously anything we do with Room 112 North at the moment would take into consideration the fact that these things are on the horizon.

In another way as well, this picks up on a theme we had raised with the committee in June 2008. It's really important with all these rooms that we be very flexible in terms of the way they are set up, so that when demands arise they can serve more than one purpose. I can say that with some degree of confidence by virtue of the fact that, for example, the Board of Internal Economy met this morning from 11:30 until 1:00 in the room. So because it's so centrally located and because it's very close to the chamber, this is a room used by many other people and other committees, as I'm sure you will appreciate.

So I was very pleased that the curator, with his very long experience—and I think it's safe to say he has a real passion for the buildings and notably for the history they represent and he is very knowledgeable about that—had come up with what we believe is an elegant and a meaningful solution to the issues you raised with Speaker Milliken. I am sure he'll be able to discuss them with you and give you a feel for what he is proposing in the next little while.

It is with great pleasure that I leave you in the hands of the Curator of the House of Commons, Mr. David Monaghan.

If there are any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Are there any questions for Madam O'Brien before she goes, or can we leave our questions for afterwards when all the presentations have been made?

Okay.

3:35 p.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons

Audrey O'Brien

You have rocketed into being my favourite committee.

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much for your presentation, Madam O'Brien.

Now, Mr. Monaghan and Mr. Vickers, do you both have opening words you'd like to share with the committee?

3:35 p.m.

David Monaghan Curator, House of Commons

No. I believe Mr. Vickers, the Sergeant-at-Arms, and I discussed it beforehand. He is here in the event that there are some questions that require an authoritative response.

Thank you very much for the opportunity of speaking with you this afternoon.

This is truly a great pleasure. It is the first time that I am appearing before a parliamentary committee. I'm not as nervous as I thought I would be.

Following the receipt of the letter the Speaker sent to Mr. Anders last year, a fair amount of consideration was given as to how we could go about providing appropriate decoration for this particular room and for this particular committee. I think the key word in all of that is “appropriate”, in the sense that, as the committee members made very clear last year--I was present during that presentation--they had a sincere desire to make a variety of witnesses, covering a whole range of the field, comfortable when they came into this room, that somehow there'd be

something that most people could immediately identify with, either because it related to their past or at least their life.

A number of things were mentioned by members of the committee during the meeting regarding what you had experienced in other locations. I remember one member referred to armour, and another person referred to paintings and the like. I took those to note and started examining some of the possibilities about how this particular room could be enhanced and decorated in a manner that would be suitable for the committee's work, and also for the witnesses.

One option was to pursue

the same idea that was used in room 362 in the East Block, the War Room. We could purchase three or four reproductions of artwork contained in the Beaverbrook military art collection in the Canadian War Museum and have them installed in the room.

However, I had to ask myself if that option would add something to the room and would be appropriate. I concluded that it was not the best idea, considering the space under consideration. Because we can only use two walls, only two reproductions can be installed. Normally the curtains can be drawn. The space behind is not an ideal one to exhibit reproductions of artwork. Because our collection does not include any pieces related to veterans, we can't really use them.

So what's the problem, and how is this room used? As Madam O'Brien mentioned, the room is used for a variety of different purposes. The furniture is changed frequently, which creates problems for displaying objects in cases. If we were to borrow anything from a museum, we would have to place it in a case; it's that simple.

A second option arose, in consideration of the building itself and the fact that this is one of the 48 special rooms in the building. There are 48 very special rooms that receive a much higher quality of decoration than others. So if we looked at the idea of a Gothic building, what are some of the elements one has in a Gothic building? The first thing that came to mind was carving and sculpture, and that we could install a series of sculptures and sculptural elements in the wooden panelling around the room.

I spoke with the federal sculptor, the individual who is responsible for maintaining and creating the sculpture both within and outside of the building, and we discussed what we could install. The recommended option I encourage the committee to consider is that we undertake to remove four of the oak panels that are currently in this room in prominent locations that are in clear view of witnesses. Those panels would be placed in storage--which is important for us, so they could be reused one day--and four new panels, similar in quality and colour, would be installed. They would feature the four service insignia of the Canadian armed forces: the Department of National Defence, the navy, the air force, and the army. Large, high-relief sculptures would be carved directly into the wood you see in the room.

My father and many of my uncles, like many people of this country, were in the armed forces during the Second World War. I have many friends who were in the armed forces, and one of the things that struck me when I spoke to a couple of them was that they identify with the service insignia. Those service insignia change over time, but people continue to identify with them. At the same time, they cut across issues of gender and location. People immediately identify with them--even family members.

The idea is that we would proceed with this project and have the four insignia carved into panels. It would be done by the federal sculptor, and would be a permanent fixture in this room.

If the committee agrees with the proposal,

the work would be completed before September 2009, according to Mr. White, the sculptor I spoke with. Furthermore, because this would be a part of the sculpture program for the Centre Block, there would be no extra costs incurred by the project.

That is my recommendation. I believe you all have examples of what the insignia would look like. These would be verified by the Department of National Defence before they were carved.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Monaghan.

I will go to the usual round of questions and see how the issue transpires, based on your questions.

Madam Sgro.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Vickers and Mr. Monaghan, for coming today to talk with us about this issue.

It's quite an interesting idea. Can you go over the size again? Are you suggesting you would do the carvings on the squares we're looking at?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

They are rectangular pieces and would fill the entire width of the piece. Each of the centre panels would be that size. They would be carved, and the full width would be taken up.

The existing panels are flat, but the new panels would be three-quarters of an inch thick. So when we say “high relief”, they would stand out, very much like the relief sculptures you see inside the building in other locations.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

How many of them would there be?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

There would be four. Let me put it this way: I am proposing four. If the committee felt there were a need for others, fine, we could discuss that. But initially the three services plus the joint service medallions would be sufficient to start off.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

So where would you have them?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

There would be one there, one over there, perhaps one there, and then one behind the chair's head.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

That would look really good over there, especially with the way David sits there. It would probably look great.

But I think it would be important to have one here.

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

There's just one space in the middle panel. In fact, the idea would be much like the carving you see in the front-row desks in the chamber. When they're done well—and Mr. White is a superb sculptor—people will be able to identify them from this distance.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

And how thick would it be?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

It would be approximately three-quarters of an inch thick, but probably a little more than half an inch deep. So it would stand out a fair amount.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

And would it stay within the tone of the wood in this room currently?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

Yes, the idea is that the panels would be of the same type of wood; it's white oak that would be used. Our woodworking shop has the wood on hand. They would fabricate the panels, and the panels would be finished by our refinishing shop to match the panels so they blend in as well we could make them.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

I think it's a great idea. It certainly is an opportunity to recognize the service men and women, which is what we're trying to do in this room. So it would be an exciting idea to do that.

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Madam Coady, there are four more minutes if you have any questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

No, I would just concur again. This is a marvellous idea, and I think it's befitting the building we are in, as well.

I do have one question. Would these four renditions be readily recognized by all members of the forces in Canada? Would you be able to identify them?

3:45 p.m.

Curator, House of Commons

David Monaghan

I would think so. If you're in the army, that's your insignia; it's not a regimental insignia, but the service insignia. The same thing is true for the air force and the navy, and of course there is the joint command. So I would think it would not be an issue.