Veterans Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2009

[Kathy Darte]

There are certainly a lot more services today in 2009 than there were in 2002.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Oh, yes, and we're happy to see that there are more services available and that people are taking advantage of them.

[Kathy Darte]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam O'Neill-Gordon.

Mr. McColeman, you have a little bump of 50 seconds of Madam O'Neill-Gordon's time.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too want to express my appreciation for your being here, and frankly, for the courage of the individuals who have experienced it to tell us their story. It's very significant and it's a model that I admire.

I spent quite a bit of my life working with mentally challenged individuals, and certainly mental illness that comes into a person's life at a certain point is similar to when individuals deal with those challenges throughout their lives. I really commend you on the model of using peer counselling and peer intervention.

We have a very expansive country, and I'm just wondering, as individuals come back and they reconnect with their families, is geography at all a problem in reaching some of these individuals and providing services?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

Yes. I guess you saw my head shake. Yes, it is always a problem.

We have peer support coordinators in 20 sites across Canada, so obviously, given the size of Canada, you know, 20 is only 20. As Kathy mentioned earlier, we are exploring the idea of using the Telehealth model for telepeer support for distant locations--that would be a video. They're reaching out a lot by phone, and I would say we also have a big part of our budget in travelling, so that Cyndi can visit those locations that are more distant so that she can do outreach to individuals. Peer support coordinators don't stay in their offices and have people come to them; that's not their work. Their office is often a Tim Hortons where they meet individuals.

Laryssa, I think you were saying yesterday, about one of the offices, that you never have families there.

So the peer support workers are out there. They're travelling a lot and they're going out to meet people.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Very good.

Before, if you didn't exist, it would really be placed on the shoulders of the medical community, probably, to handle these issues. I'm wondering, have you had any kinds of reviews of or comments on this model by the medical community that said it is effective, that it works? Is that something you have either undertaken to do on your own as a service provider and/or has just been offered voluntarily by outside agencies? In particular, I'm thinking of the medical community.

[Kathy Darte]

We have a psychiatrist. When we talked earlier about having a multi-disciplinary team to support management, we've had a psychiatrist who is a consultant with Veterans Affairs, who has always been attached to the OSISS program from the very beginning. There is a psychiatrist who is from the medical community, who fully supports this kind of model.

Also, there are the operational trauma and stress support centres, which are the National Defence medical clinics for operational stress injuries, and in Veterans Affairs we have the operational stress injury clinics, so in total we have eight in place in Veterans Affairs, and we'll soon have two more, for a total of ten. Defence has five, and they have medical professionals working in those clinics. All of the clinics across the country, pretty much, all know about OSISS. In fact, some of the OSISS peer support coordinators are actually working full-time from the clinic, so they are working in collaboration with these medical professionals.

Referrals will come both ways, and Cyndi can speak to this because she's a case in point of someone who works with a clinic. Cyndi will refer individuals who come to her to the clinic. They have to go through the Veterans Affairs district office, but then to the clinic, and vice versa; the medical professionals in the clinic know of Cyndi and the kind of work she does, and they know about how that can support their work and they will refer individuals to her.

So, yes, the medical community in National Defence and Veterans Affairs are aware of OSISS, and also in the medical community as a whole there are many medical people who are aware of OSISS and encourage their patients or clients, if you will, to seek the services of OSISS or make them aware of the services of OSISS.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I'm thinking along the lines...as you've grown and as you've been able to serve more individuals, are you seeing any kinds of trends? Where I'm heading here with this question is this. Are there any trends in age groups? Are there any trends in certain types of experiences they've had in their military lives? Are you seeing any of that, or is this one of those situations, like in a lot of mental illnesses, that it can hit anybody at any point in time?

Having said that, I'm thinking specifically of the aboriginal community, and I'm thinking specifically of people who have served and are part of that community. I'm not trying to put this in any way in a racial manner--that's not where I'm heading here. I have the largest aboriginal community in my riding. I'm just wondering whether those people get served as well, and how you reach out to that community along those lines as well.

So there are two questions. Are there any trends at all on ages or anything like that, and secondly, are you successfully getting to the aboriginal Canadians who have served?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I guess I could say we don't have any data to show the trends. We don't know. So it would have to be studied further.

[Kathy Darte]

I'll ask Cyndi to answer the aboriginal question, but I just want to make another point on trends.

We're seeing in the OSISS program—and we didn't see this probably three years ago, but we're certainly seeing it over the last two—more traditional veterans accessing the services of this program. When I say traditional veterans, I mean our older veterans. The program was set up for CF members and CF veterans, which we traditionally think of as being the younger population. In fact, one of our peer support coordinators in southern Ontario has peer support groups for the elderly veteran. Again, that is all based on awareness too; it's awareness in that community and that area, because they have the elderly veterans coming to the clinics and they're seeing they can benefit from the services of peer support.

Over to Cyndi.

[Cyndi Muise]

Thank you.

Another thing we've done in Alberta...I have several aboriginal peers. Due to confidentiality, I wasn't able to say who was who, so we found a way to connect them. There are five of the aboriginal veterans who just hang out. That's a big part of our job too, connecting people. Sometimes we'll sit with a person, and then the next person will come in and you'll realize that was the guy's boss who was just here. So it's dynamic in that way, and we're able to connect them in that way.

We also have coordinators who are involved with aboriginal communities.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

That's excellent. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. McColeman and Madam Muise.

We'll now go to Mr. Stoffer, for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I noticed on the continuation of OSISS that it always deals with DND and Veterans Affairs. Maybe this question should be directed to the government, but Kathy, has there been any discussion with the RCMP in order to bring them in as the third part of this? As you know, RCMP veterans apply for DVA benefits—or veterans benefits, I should say. Is there any talk about including them as a third branch of OSISS?

[Kathy Darte]

We in OSISS do not turn anybody away. If someone needs services or needs any kind of help and comes to us, we don't say because they're RCMP or they're this or they're that, they have to go in that direction. We don't turn them away.

We can say that in our program we have a number of RCMP members, both serving and retired, as well as family, who we're providing service to.

On the second part of your question, yes, we've had discussions with the RCMP. They are certainly well aware of our program. We have just formed a new mental health advisory committee, again a partnership committee. Some of you may recall the OSISS advisory committee, which was chaired by Colonel Don Ethell. That has amalgamated into a mental health advisory committee including Veterans Affairs, National Defence, and the RCMP. The membership of that committee involves mental health professionals from the three departments, and OSISS also has membership on that particular committee. So yes, they are aware of our program, and they are trying to learn about our program and see how it can benefit their members.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

You also said that if OSISS isn't able to supply a particular need of some sort, there are other things within the community, generally provincial or municipal concerns. But one of the concerns, of course, is who would then pay for that. If OSISS wasn't able to have a particular child psychologist or someone of that nature, and then, say, the province had one and the person went there to get their treatment, they would have to pay for that. Would OSISS end up paying for that, or would they themselves have to pay for that if they go outside OSISS to get help?

Again, I go back to the financial problems they have. If they go to OSISS—

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

OSISS does not provide professional treatments. We only offer peer support. So you might be referring to the OSI clinic maybe—the operational stress injury clinic.

[Kathy Darte]

If they were referred to an operational stress injury clinic of Veterans Affairs and were eligible to access the services of that clinic, then Veterans Affairs would be paying for that particular service.

I want to point out that for veterans, there is the Veterans Affairs Canada Assistance Service, which is there for family members of veterans. The “family” could be the spouse, children, or others within that family unit. That is counselling—and not only psychological counselling; there is financial counselling available through this service. When accessing that particular service, they are entitled to a certain number of sessions; it's a starting point.

If they do access that particular service as a family member of a veteran, it's paid for by Veterans Affairs. These counsellors are in their local communities and are well aware of what other services may be available in that community to which they could refer them.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Kathy, what happens in a case where a peer support coordinator like Laryssa or Cyndi...? Of course, everything is confidential, but if they suspect that Buddy is going to go back home and do some serious damage to his family, through domestic violence or whatever, obviously Laryssa and Cyndi would be concerned about that. What is the procedure in that regard? I know it happens; we know there is domestic abuse, just as among civilians, and that it happens all the time. What is the procedure in that case? If I came to Laryssa or Cyndi and said, “Man, that operation in Afghanistan really brought me down”, etc., and you suspected that I might go home and take it out on the people I love the most, what's the procedure then?

[Cyndi Muise]

Like everybody else in any community, we follow our duty to report. We have to report, if we suspect harm to self or others, if there's child abuse, or if we're subpoenaed.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Who do you report that to?

[Cyndi Muise]

We report it to the local authorities. In my area I'd call the Calgary Police Service, and then they would contact Family Services. But yes, we have to follow under that duty to report.

[Kathy Darte]

Let me add that this is made known to the person as well, if they've shared that kind of information with them. They may not—

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

What if they didn't, though?