Evidence of meeting #34 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was doctor.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm substituting for Peter Stoffer today. He sends his regrets.
Monsieur Beaudin and Monsieur Drapeau, thank you very much for being here. It's an honour to have you before the committee. I appreciate hearing your testimony.
Before I ask a question or two, I was wondering about something you mentioned, Monsieur Beaudin, which I think I need more clarification on. You said, I believe, that you have a diagnosis of 50% PTSD. Could you tell me, what does that mean? What does 50% look like? How does a doctor say it's only 50%? How does that work? Does that make sense?
4 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
I'll tell you about how it works. We're asked to write about part of our military life and to pinpoint when we think our symptoms began. I had so much to write that I no longer knew what to put down. I wrote 50 pages. I submitted my essay to the psychologist, who examined it. After that, the psychologist met with me three times and then referred me to the psychiatrist at Ste. Anne's Hospital. I saw the psychiatrist for almost eight months, and she finally diagnosed me with the disorder.
To answer your question, I have no idea. I told the psychiatrist what had hurt me and affected me and why I woke up every night, hypervigilant and shaking. This is still a common occurrence in my life. I can't sleep with my wife because I'm afraid I'll strangle, suffocate or hit her. People with my condition are afraid of their own shadow, they become hypervigilant. Keep in mind that our experiences have turned most of us into time bombs.
How is PTSD assessed? I don't know. They determine that we exhibit port-traumatic stress symptoms at a certain level. We're talking about medical findings. In my case, after prescribing me 35 different kinds of pills, which were not always the right ones, I should point out, they came to the conclusion that I was suffering from 50% PTSD. I think I might be at 90%. Who knows?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Yes, I don't understand how you can get a 50% determination, but....
Given what you've said, what would you suggest that National Defence or Veterans Affairs Canada could do to improve the operation of their programs and to improve their understanding of suicide?
4:05 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
I'm glad you're asking me that. I met with Ms. Tining in June. I also had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Blackburn. This wasn't an official meeting, but we had a chance to chat during the Sunset Ceremony. I told him that the situation had changed in some respects, especially in the case of young soldiers returning from Afghanistan. They are given more attention, and a little more effort is made to provide them with counselling. However, the added attention doesn't change the fact that the soldiers must go through all the steps of the process. Identifying the young soldiers, monitoring them from the outset and providing them with treatment is fine and well, but if they are left to their own devices after six or eight months, if they are given a negative diagnosis, the effort will have been in vain.
I suggest we do exactly as I've done, that is, create a brothers-in-arms movement. The chain is missing a link. A link is missing between the clinic and the veterans. The brother in arms won't have to go directly to the clinic. He can say that the system doesn't work, that it's all wrong, that he's being laughed at and that, in reality, those in charge don't care about him and are dragging out his case in hope that he'll just drop it. That way, they won't have to compensate him, or provide him with treatment, and the costs defrayed by the system will be reduced.
I have created a link that enables young men to come see me. Since I have already gone through all the steps the system requires us to go through, I am better equipped to guide these young soldiers. I can at least keep them safe for a few years, while we look for a solution to the problem. I suggest that we add a link between the clinics and the veterans.
In addition, the work done by the officials in Charlottetown needs to be demystified. We are under the impression that strangers are working behind the wrought iron gates of a medieval castle. We are left wondering who these people are that are making decisions regarding the fate of those who have served their country in missions around the world. They are civilians—that is who they are—and I have nothing against civilians. However, we're talking about civilians who lack the basic understanding of the system, who judge us and who make decisions about our future, about our condition. That makes no sense.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
Thank you, Mr. Drapeau and Mr. Beaudin. It's good to have you here today.
I just want to clarify something before I get into my questions. Are you affiliated with the UN peacekeeping association, the long-standing one? The other, of course, would have to do with NATO. Are you connected with the other groups?
4:05 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
No, my group is privately organized. However, I know people from the other groups. Many brothers in arms who served with me are members of those associations. Our case is somewhat complicated because we are part of the new generation. They say people who belong to our generation are between 35 and 65 years old. Other generations have different values.
Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, Legion members who served in Korea are primarily concerned about Ste. Anne's Hospital remaining open so that they can continue getting treatment. I am a modern vet, I don't even have access to that hospital, sir. It will be sold for a dollar to the provincial government, and I will never be able to get treatment there. The only area we have access to is a small wing at the back of the hospital that cost $1.2 million to build. The Royal Canadian Legion put up $200,000, and the rest came from the Department of Veterans Affairs. I think that the wing has eight beds. In 2002, there were 800 patients being treated there. Today, there are only 202 patients left. They do not sleep on site because they are considered to be low-needs cases.
Keep in mind that the members of my generation and my group are spread out throughout these organizations. Three people from my organization are working in peer support at the clinics of Ste. Anne's Hospital. They are doing very good work because they are brothers in arms talking to other brothers in arms.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
I'm glad you clarified that for me.
One of the things we've heard about from a number of witnesses over time is peer support, which is really what you're talking about, whereby people who have been through it and have experienced the horror and the after-effects are dealing with their friends and colleagues. There seems to be more and more interest in going in that direction.
It seems that one of the big pressures, as I think you indicated, is that for the modern vets today who are coming back from Afghanistan there are many more initiatives under way, but there's quite a gap from what was done for the traditional vet to that point. Do you think more emphasis on peer groups, those who have gone through it, those who have been in the service and are experienced, with ways to connect them up with the soldiers coming home...? Is that the right direction to be going in?
4:10 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
There is already a generational gap. Those coming back from Afghanistan have a completely different view of what they went through. They are coming back to Canada with Afghanistan experience, their problems are much more specific. I think it's good to have someone talk to these soldiers, but it should be a brother in arms who has also served in Afghanistan. It shouldn't be someone like me, who served in Cyprus or Germany, as I am not familiar with their reality. They need to talk to peers who have lived through similar experiences in Afghanistan.
Let's not forget that these men will become problem cases in the future. They will come home at 23 or 24 years of age, after four, five or six missions, in addition to all the preparation for those missions. They prepare for eight months and then spend seven months in the field. They come back from a mission and start getting ready for the next one. They go through this process four times and, once they can no longer go on missions, they will feel a void. Many of them will leave the Canadian Forces because they will need the adrenalin rush, like we needed it when we came back from missions. We were unable to reintegrate ourselves into civilian life. Before life could go on normally, four to six month needed to pass, and many have not been successful in getting back on track.
I am one of those people. I had numerous problems. These young fellows will become powerful time bombs, they will develop post-traumatic stress disorder somewhere between 2018 and 2022. Many people who went to Afghanistan at 21 years of age will suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder by the age of 35, that is somewhere between 2020 and 2025. You'll then have a serious problem on your hands. The Department of Veterans Affairs will have a serious problem to deal with. It would be a wise move to establish a peer support system, as I said, to intervene right away, to provide the soldiers with treatment and invest a lot into that treatment without thinking about the dollars. You will go over budget because of what's coming anyway.
I don't know if you understand what I'm getting at. Perhaps I'm expressing myself poorly.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
What is your opinion of the OSISS clinic process? There's been quite a bit of effort made on that, where DND or Canadian Forces, working with Veterans Affairs, tries to work into a transition process. One of the reasons, as you just so clearly pointed out, is that you may not know in the first year or two or five years that you're going to have the disorder; it may take time. It seems as though working towards these clinics and identification and following through with the veteran afterwards is an important part of it.
Have these clinics played much of a role? Or have you had much time to examine the OSISS clinics?
4:15 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
I am a patient in those clinics myself.
The clinics have a role to play, as long as they are working. If an administrator in charge of the budget cuts the number of doctors and the time for patients…
A lot of doctors are suffering from burn-out, because their decisions are always being questioned by Veterans Affairs Canada bureaucrats in Charlottetown. The clinics are losing their reason for existing. People no longer want to go to them; you feel that you are going for nothing because your doctor will not be there any more.
After the holidays, I am going to lose the psychiatrist who has been looking after me for five years. Where am I going to go? I will get a new psychiatrist and I will have to start from scratch and tell my story all over again. The clinic fulfills its role as long as the care is good and regular and the administrators want us as clients. If they do not want us, if they have budget problems…
I personally go to the clinic at the Ste. Anne's Hospital and I am noticing that I have less time with the doctor and that a lot of doctors are leaving. There is something going on with the administration.
The in-patients are major cases. I think there are just four of them at the moment.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
I think we may be talking about two different clinics here: the new occupational stress clinics that are working with DND and Veterans Affairs and what you're talking about, the clinics that you go to.
That's okay. It's just a little clarification, I think, on the question. That's fine.
We'll go now to Ms. Duncan.
Oh, Mr. Drapeau, did you...?
4:15 p.m.
Veteran, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
I'm going to give you an example for the CSIP. They're really great as long as people know they exist.
I saw a kid about two months ago who for two months fed his family with his credit card because he had no income coming in. He came from Afghanistan with PTSD. He had no support. He called the reserves, who told him his paperwork had been sent. He called CSIP and they told him they hadn't received the paperwork. I found out about it on Friday and I directed him to those fellows, and the week after, his problem was solved.
The big problem you're getting with these kids is that they don't know where to go. Although the system is there to help them, they don't have a clue that they should go there.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
I appreciate that. Part of my point is that there are resources. Perhaps there should be more funding and direction, but often it's the communication to get them into the right spot.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Thank you.
Thank you both so much for coming in and for having the courage to come to talk about this. While I share two stories, I will ask you to think about what would help you.
Is it that the Veterans Review and Appeal Board actually have medical people who understand this condition on the board if this goes to appeal? Is it having fewer contract workers? I heard in B.C. that veterans had seen five different people in five weeks, because they were contract workers. Is it giving veterans the benefit of the doubt? Is it programs for the partner and for the children? Is it how often people see a psychiatrist or a psychologist and for how long? I will ask you to think about that while I share these stories.
To your point, on Sunday I received an e-mail from a veteran we've been helping for two months. The e-mail was very disturbing. I had to call the veterans' crisis line as a result. What he said in his e-mail was that he had been told he has to wait three months for help. Now, they're telling us it's a three-week wait in one city, it's four weeks in another and, as Mr. Beaudin says, that's if you live in the city. What if you live in a remote area?
He was told three months. He has PTSD that he has lived with for 10 years. I phoned the crisis line. I said: “This man needs help today. Can you get him counselling?” Then I sent him an e-mail saying, “Call this number, and if you don't get help, you call me back”. His response to me last night was, “Why did it take you intervening to get me the help?”
You also talked about PTSD and anger issues and not being able to get help because they don't want to deal with it, and I have another case we're working on, so you have really raised important issues.
And now, perhaps each of you could tell me about five things that would make your lives easier that we could do to help, that the government could change to help.
4:20 p.m.
Founder, Veterans UN-NATO Canada
It is difficult for me to list priorities. But I know very well that, from the first time you meet the psychologists and psychiatrists, you need to be dealt with as a veteran, someone they want to take care of, not someone who needs to prove that he is ill. Always having to prove that you have your condition makes you feel bad. That is one thing. A lot of guys change their minds. They start to go, but the way in which some people treat them when they get there causes a problem. I am not saying everyone. Some people are very professional. I do not know if it because of the frustration because they are bureaucrats and we are maybe entitled to a pension. I do not know if that is where the problem is, but I had that experience in the process I went through. Some people really do not know how to handle us.
I also think that the clinics are not set up to meet the needs. Personally, I think that the clinic at Ste. Anne's Hospital is very nice. There is a television room and everything, but the system they have put in place makes the patient almost into a child again. You practically have to ask permission before going to the toilet. I don't feel that a 50-year-old guy, who spent his life as a sergeant, wants to go and tell a 20-year-old girl that he has to go to the toilet. Last week, I went to the Ste. Anne Hospital and I saw one of my comrades leave the clinic. He refused the care. His wife had come to see him; he wanted to talk to her and the worker told him to get on the bus and she didn't want to have to tell him again. He said that he was going to leave because, ill as he might well be, at his age, he was not going to put up with the way he was being treated anymore. I saw that with my own eyes. I was there.
Then there are the bureaucrats in Charlottetown. We have to demystify the whole idea of veterans—
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Please shorten your answer, because we have to go on to the next question.