Veterans Affairs Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

In my mind that's where Veterans Affairs needs to step in. I'm looking for you to agree or disagree with me. It's the partnership in the delivery of these types of services to people who have PTSD and OSD. We've opened five more clinics for veterans across the country; we're up to 10 clinics now, integrated with the services in your community. That's what we should strive toward. We have the resources to do the whole thing. Would you see that model working?

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

I think the inter-agency and intermingling approach is the way of the future. It's the way we can look at somebody holistically and help them decide what they need, first of all, and then have access to that support without being so specialized that we're waiting two years to see somebody to check our medication dose or get a proper diagnosis. If we have OT, psychologists, sociologists, social workers, and everybody together around the table, then we can work as a team. That eliminates the turf war as well: this is mine, this is yours; these are my dollars, not your dollars.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Pickrell Baker.

Thank you, Mr. McColeman.

We'll move on to Madam Crombie for five minutes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you both.

I was touched by both your stories. Thank you for sharing them with us.

Sandra, if I may address you like that, what led you to your research?

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

I had a long-standing practice of using energy medicine techniques. I had a client who had trauma and had suffered post-traumatic stress. I saw her struggle with her family in trying to find her new normal. She was a physician who was unable to work for a number of years. She would regain some health in working with me and her psychiatrist. She would go home and her family would expect her to return to work the next week. So there was a complete lack of understanding of what she was dealing with.

That was the butt of the interest. What put fire under it was my own daughter's diagnosis with a traumatic injury.

The reason for veterans is that my grandfather, my father, and my brother are all veterans. I was born on Veterans Day. It seemed to be a natural thing for me to do.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You talk a lot about the interdisciplinary approach that's needed. Does it exist today?

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

In Nova Scotia there's a system called Schools Plus. It came out of something called the Nunn Commission, and it is using an interdisciplinary approach in three jurisdictions in Nova Scotia: Halifax, Bridgewater, and I'm not sure what the other one is. We come together around the table with a child who has been labelled at risk. That could be at risk for deviant behaviour or mental health issues. We come around the table--OT, mental health, social workers--and look at the needs of this child and how we can best meet the needs. Again, it eliminates that turf war of yours, mine, my dollars, your dollars. These children are getting the help they need without falling through the cracks.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

To continue with Mr. Stoffer's questioning about the children, what more can we provide for them? What kind of impact does this have on them in their adult lives, dealing in their younger years with this family situation that's very dysfunctional?

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

I had the opportunity to talk to the child of one of the women I interviewed. Coincidentally, I met her completely outside my academic career. She disclosed that her mother had been interviewed by me. I didn't know her but she knew me. We had a discussion. She didn't understand why her dad was so controlling, why he so controlled her and the environment. She talked about the complications for her now that she's an adult, in trying to deal with the way she was parented without the proper understanding.

I certainly think that's research that needs to be done: how these children are experiencing it now and what we can do to help support them in their situations so they're not going to become adults predestined to struggle with depression or operational stress injuries as they mature.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

As they likely could be or will be, exactly.

Could you also talk about some of the therapy that's available to couples for counselling? Many of them are reluctant to take it because of the circumstances you described, the stigma involved. So they don't really get the counselling they need as a family or as a couple.

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

Again, Charles Figley, in Burnout in Families, said the most important thing in the family where trauma is an issue is that the primary caregiver—whether that's the intimate partner, the mother or the father—is able to maintain self-care and strong personal boundaries.

I can tell you, as the parent of a child with a traumatic injury, being in therapy has been very important for me, because I so want to rescue her. I so want to make everything okay. Both my husband and I realize that we can't do that. So what's challenging as a mother is not to enable that injury. I can't imagine, if it were my husband, how much more I'd want to enable and just be the impetus for the healing. So that has been fundamentally important for me.

Again, as articulated by Figley and a number of others, the intimate partner or the significant caregiver needs to be actively working on maintaining their personal boundaries and self-care. If it's your intimate partner and you're afraid to leave your children at home alone because you don't know if they're going to be cared for, you know what the reality is.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Right, of course. Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Zimmermann, if I have a few more minutes.

Do you think we should entrench a disability rights charter within the new Veterans Charter?

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

Yes, I think that would be an excellent idea. It's not something we haven't seen. A number of jurisdictions have moved in that direction. Certainly with the government having recently ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, article 27 of that convention deals exclusively with reintegration and employment opportunities, because it is so critical. So I think it would be a great leadership opportunity.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I'm running out of time, so just quickly, your background is from the WSIB. Is there a role for a national or a federal WSIB that would integrate all the programs among all the provinces? Do you envision such an agency? No?

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

No, I don't. It would be tremendously complicated. As well, this is defined constitutionally as a provincial responsibility.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You talked a lot about the Council of Chief Executives—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Sorry, Ms. Crombie, it was a good try, but you're way, way over.

[An hon. member]

It was noble.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Yes, it was distinguished and noble.

Now we'll go to Mr. Storseth for five minutes, please.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank both witnesses for coming forward today and for doing an excellent job in not only explaining to this committee many things that you have been researching and working on, but also helping to raise this issue once again and bringing light to an issue that is very important to tens of thousands of men and women across our country. It is through conversations and dialogue like this, and exposing some of the important factors of this, that we will be able to continue to ensure to more people that this is something they shouldn't be embarrassed about; this is something they need to tackle. It is a very serious illness, and I want to thank you for your dedication to that.

I have only a couple of short questions for you. I've been very intrigued with some of the things you've said and some of the questions that have been asked from all the committee members.

When we were talking about children—Mr. Stoffer started it and Ms. Crombie followed up on it—a question came to my mind, because I have a military community in my riding that has military schools. It seems to make sense to me that as one of the things for these children who have parents who are affected by PTSD, and thus they're affected by PTSD...there would be comfort in having others around them who have experienced or are experiencing the same difficulties within their family.

Have you seen any evidence of this, or counterintuitive—

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

No. The only concern I would have is any identification, that you're going to identify a child with a trauma, that you're going to isolate them to become identified as the child of a parent with a mental health issue.

A couple of years ago, there was a little girl in Borden—I don't know if you recall. Her dad was deployed. She was called to the principal's office for some unrelated matter, but she fainted, because when they called her to the office, she thought they were calling her to tell her that her father had passed away. So this is the trauma, the level of trauma, that these children are living with.

These children are watching war like never before. They're seeing first-hand what's going on, unlike when my dad was in the military or World War II veterans. We didn't see war the way we're seeing it now. These children know first-hand what their parents are experiencing, and the level of stress they're under I don't think can be underestimated.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

I wasn't so much talking about identifying the children, as children tend to do that themselves. They tend to find others who are going through the same issues. I would think they have more of a comfort zone or a support system than being sent to a public school where kids are not experiencing the same thing. Kids from the oil patch are not experiencing the same thing, so they don't provide that support system. I was more asking about that.

There is another thing that has been touched upon, and it's touched upon all the time when we bring this up. I think it's something we need to address, if not through the Veteran's Charter, then in some way, shape, or form.

We talked today about an individual who was in Bosnia three times. Many, many members are sent out of the services or leave the services voluntarily without being diagnosed with PTSD, but they do have PTSD. It's years later that they come to terms with it, and they have no choice but to come to terms with it. Oftentimes, as you stated, it has ruined their family life.

I would like to hear more from you with regard to the difficulties these people go through in trying to access the services, and how critically important it is that the government steps up and makes it easier for these people.

I'm dealing with a gentleman right now who finds it hard enough to admit that he has been diagnosed with this. He gets diagnosed, and now he can't get any help because he has to go through Sun Life, or wherever else he has to go.

Could you comment on that, please?

[Sandra Pickrell Baker]

That was the experience of most of the people I interviewed. As I said, only two of them were diagnosed prior to leaving the military. The majority of them were struggling to get that diagnosis recognized so they could get the support they were entitled to. In one case they had been diagnosed but were never told they had this diagnosis.

None of the members I interviewed were released voluntarily; they would say they were pushed out. One had struggled with severe depression. One was released because after 27 years in the military he developed a fear of flying. It had nothing to do with where he was flying; it was some irrational fear of flying. So he was released.

I think there needs to be some way for them to access that diagnosis, and for streamlining once they get the diagnosis. I understand it's important that they get a valid diagnosis, but they shouldn't have to wait and fight for years to get the compensation and support they deserve. It adds stress on stress.

In one case, after he'd been to the private psychologist to get all the forms and the diagnosis was done, the forms sat on the counter for six months. He could not do it. I don't know if they are filled out yet, but when I had the interview they were still sitting on the counter. She said he can't. He can't come out of his bedroom for days on end, let alone sit at the kitchen table and fill out all these forms.

She was busy working full-time. He was released without a disability pension, so she was working full-time, plus overtime, in order to provide for him and the five children. There was no way she had the time to fill out the forms. There needs to be some way of getting them the support so that happens.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Baker and Mr. Storseth.

To try to be fair, I'll give two minutes to the NDP and then two minutes to the Conservative Party.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Well, in the interest of time, Mr. Chair, I'll hold my questions for later.

I want to say to Mr. Zimmermann that I'm always impressed. A friend of mine, Sean McCormick, is similar to you. He had an accident--he fell out of the back of a truck--and he became one of Canada's best advocates for military personnel in developing programs for disabled veterans. He also had his own company. He did a wonderful job. It was amazing that a man in a wheelchair was able to get around better than I could.

I'm impressed with what you're able to do, sir. Congratulations for that.

Sandra, thank you for bringing the stories of those eight families to us. A few years ago we had a meeting, which the chairman and I were on, and it was one of the most emotional meetings I ever had. We had people with PTSD and their spouses--these are pretty high-ranking folks--and it was quite amazing. I noticed when we popped the things today...the popping of those trays brought back memories to them.

I want to thank you very much. I appreciate both of you for being here.

Thank you.