Evidence of meeting #63 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lt  N) Louise Richard ((Retired), As an Individual
Marie Richard  As an Individual
Eric Daxon  Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

We're in committee business and our discussion is on depleted uranium and Canadian veterans.

We're very honoured today to have with us Louise Richard. She is here to present and discuss her concerns.

Madame Richard, we're very honoured that you're with us today. We greatly appreciate your time, and that of your supporters as well, to help us in our study of depleted uranium and the concerns of Canadian veterans.

Please take your time. We're here for you in both official languages.

The very first time I met you was back in 2001, I believe, in room 362, so it's good to see you again. I wish you the very best.

Please proceed.

9:10 a.m.

Lt N) Louise Richard ((Retired), As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize for not being here on March 7. I'm very unwell. I have a serious blood condition. My eyes are bad and my concentration is poor. So if you could please be patient with me, I'd appreciate it. I'll do my best.

I see that we're short of time already, so I'll—

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

It's okay.

I also want to correct the record. It's retired Lieutenant (Navy) Louise Richard.

Thank you.

9:10 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

Thank you, sir.

Before I start my remarks, I would like to mention that my mother, Marie Richard, is here with me. She's a Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal recipient for this year. I'm very proud of her. She's a co-founder of the yellow ribbon support group, from back when we went to the Gulf War. She also has been a very passionate advocate along with me every step of the way. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for my mother.

[Applause]

Also, my brother, Pierre Richard, is sitting behind us. I'm very pleased that he came up from Montreal.

Thank you.

I was born into a military family of great military tradition. My grandfather, my mother's father, was a World War II veteran, an officer. My uncle, her brother, was a logistics officer. My brother Pierre was a Royal 22nd Regiment officer, and my father was a lieutenant-general with the R22R.

I'm an RN. I have a post-graduate degree in mental health. I'm a disabled 1990-91 Persian Gulf War veteran. That also was known as Gulf War I or Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I will share with you my personal experience to enable you to better understand where this whole nightmare started and why so many of us are seriously ill, dying, or dead.

For 22 long years now, our war and the various serious lasting health consequences have yet to be addressed, and not from lack of trying, trust me. What's interesting today is that this is the day 22 years ago that I came back from the Gulf War. I'm blessed to still be alive. A lot of my colleagues are no longer with us.

I was 29 years old. I was very athletic. I recently had been promoted to captain. I was in the prime of my life, my health, and my career. I was sent to the Gulf War on January 24, 1991, as a nurse, a member of the advanced surgical contingent. We were fewer than 50. Colonel Claude Auger was our commanding officer and also our surgeon.

Preparation for deployment was very chaotic, confusing, and very fast. It was comprised of many inoculations. To name a few, there were inoculations for typhoid, meningitis, yellow fever, cholera, influenza, and hepatitis B, too many in too short a timeframe. Protocols weren't followed.

As if that weren't enough, shortly upon my arrival in Al Jubail, Saudi Arabia, I was inoculated with biological warfare agents, such as anthrax with pertussis, bubonic plague, and botulism toxoid. These were the known vaccines received. Most vaccines were never documented in our vaccination books. I had many flu-like symptoms and achiness, but I had a very serious reaction to the anthrax vaccine.

Over and above all of this, we were ordered to take a little pill every eight hours. It was called pyridostigmine bromide, or NAPS. It was a prophylactic agent against nerve gas exposure. Just that pill alone caused a lot of illness and gave me very serious side effects, such as sweating, urination, hypersalivation, and difficulty in seeing. This was in the desert, so it was very unusual to have these kinds of side effects. We were also issued DEET, a body insect repellant. We were given experimental drugs and vaccines without our knowledge or consent.

Shortly after our arrival in the Middle East we were deployed to southern Saudi Arabia in the desert, less than 20 kilometres from the Iraq-Kuwait border. We amalgamated our tents and our operating room theatre with the British 32 Field Hospital. Ninety-five per cent of our patients, our casualties, were Iraqi prisoners of war. They were infested with lice and communicable diseases and covered in shrapnel and open wounds. God only knows where they were and what they were exposed to before reaching us. We also had the responsibility, along with the British, to take care of over 5,000 Iraqi prisoners of war.

Organophosphates, a very strong pesticide, was liberally sprayed on tents and surrounding areas to keep the desert creepy-crawlies at bay.

Since I was there during the air and ground war, we had numerous Scud alerts. The sirens went off many times. After a while we were told to ignore the false alarms and not bother with our protective suits. Often the gas mask was worn just to help us breathe and protect ourselves against the toxic oil and smoke from the over 800 oil wells set ablaze.

For the first time in the history of modern warfare, depleted uranium ammunition was used. The massive number of bombs, cluster bombs, bullets, various artillery shells all contain DU. The Americans used over 350 tonnes, and God knows how much the Brits used. Close to one million DU shells were fired during the first Gulf War.

Depleted uranium does not occur naturally. It is not found in nature. DU is a byproduct of the industrial processing of waste from nuclear reactors, better known as weapons-grade uranium. It's a toxic radiological waste. It's cheap and plentiful.

A DU shell bursts into flames as soon as it leaves its delivery device. When it hits its target, it burns on impact and creates an extreme temperature of over 2,000 degrees Celsius, releasing into the air billions of invisible little radioactive particles. This extreme fine dust of aerosolized, vaporized uranium oxide consists of metallic microparticles that are smaller than a virus or a bacteria.

DU emits alpha radiation, ionizing radiation. It's chemically toxic and radioactive. One becomes exposed if it's inhaled, ingested through the eyes, in contact with open wounds, contaminated clothing, prisoners of war, blown-up tanks, battle debris, shrapnel spread into the environment by desert winds, contaminating everything in its path. It remains toxic and radioactive for 4.5 billion years.

It's highly dangerous internally. Depleted uranium contamination causes virtually every known illness. It clings to the respiratory system for years, even decades, and irradiate the surrounding tissues, damaging neighbouring organs. Gradually it passes through the lung blood membranes into the bloodstream and lymphatic system causing illness to the entire body.

Radiation mutates cells causing cancers, leukemia, lymphoma, congenital disorder, and birth defects. They enter the bloodstream and circulate freely through the body, emitting radiation as they travel. Some concentrate in lymph nodes and cause lymphatic cancer, others in the bladder, the brain, and cause kidney damage, as we're aware of. Eventually it settles in major organs, the bones, and the teeth.

Many soldiers brought contaminated debris home with them as war souvenirs without knowing the dangers of it. We were never told about the use of DU on the battlefield, let alone how to protect ourselves against it. At the end of our war I don't know what nitwit chose to bring this blown-up tank into our compound, but it was an Iraqi tank that had been blown up, and obviously it was contaminated with DU, but we were not aware of it at all.

The Persian Gulf War veterans in 1 CER were exposed to the most toxic battlefield ever known to mankind. We were in an abnormal environment, under abnormal conditions, and suffered abnormal exposures. Since most of us suffer from abnormal and unique, very serious and debilitating chronic symptoms, illnesses, and diseases, it has become known as Gulf War illness, medically unexplained chronic multi-symptom illness. Gulf War illness is characterized by a combination of memory and concentration problems, persistent headaches, unexplained fatigue, widespread pain, chronic digestive problems, respiratory problems, skin rashes, and so on.

Scientific evidence leaves no question that Gulf War illness is a real condition. They are objective biological measures that relate to structure and functioning of the brain, of the autonomic nervous system, neuroendocrine system, and immune alterations and variability in enzymes that protect the body from neurotoxic chemicals, also known as PON1. It's an enzyme that helps metabolize any kind of toxins through the system.

A scientific report says that Gulf War illness fundamentally differs from stress-related syndromes described after other wars. Studies consistently indicate that Gulf War vets have lower rates of PTSD than veterans from other wars. Gulf War illness and depleted uranium: this is a new phenomenon. It's unknown to medical science. It's a new medical condition.

All governments for the past 22 years, which include five prime ministers, 14 ministers of veterans affairs and 12 ministers of national defence, have done everything to lie, deny, mislead the ill and disabled veterans and their families, mislead the Canadian public, and make all believe that all is fine with us and we are very well taken care of. Canada has downplayed this very serious health consequence that has plagued us for over 22 long years now. We are sent by Parliament to the worst hellholes on earth to protect and respect our human rights and our democracy, only to come home and have them stripped away by our own governments that sent us to war.

Many spouses, children, and civilian populations are also ill with Gulf War illness. One in three is ill, getting worse, dying, or dead. More than 80,000 U.S. Army vets have died since their return from the 1991 Gulf War. Over 8,000 U.K. vets have died also. How many Canadians? Who knows? No one seems to care or know.

We are released from DND undiagnosed, misdiagnosed, or not diagnosed at all. We're left untreated. We're left on our own to find our own doctors, civilian doctors, specialists, therapists, psychiatrists. Canadian vets have been totally abandoned. Our symptoms, illnesses, and concerns have been minimized, belittled, ignored—stress. As for the doctors and specialists we do find who are willing to take us on, VAC has the nerve to challenge their diagnoses, their treatments, and their credentials. Veterans Affairs dictates to us how many treatments, and the distance we can travel on our claims. Policy always overrules the needs of the ill veteran.

Veterans' medical files and immunization books are either missing or simply nothing was documented, and there is very little documented upon release. We have since personally experienced the military's removing important key documents from veterans' files. They have also blacked out information in the files. How is a vet to prove what he or she is suffering from and relate it directly to military service when the needed documents are nowhere to be found?

This goes against us for VAC applications and appeals, since you must prove that what you are applying for and suffer from is directly related to your military service. Veterans and families must be granted the benefit of the doubt. The burden of proof should be on VAC, not on the disabled veteran. Wasn't going to war enough? Many wars and missions have occurred in the past 20 years with Canadian involvement: the Gulf War, Somalia, Rwanda, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, the Balkans, Afghanistan. We know that depleted uranium was also used in Bosnia, in the Balkans, in Afghanistan, and also in Iraq.

The Gulf War veterans and modern combat vets as a whole have been made to feel like toxic waste that has been disposed of and dumped onto our provinces, our families, and significant others who are expected to care for us and understand our needs and illnesses without any knowledge, direction, or support from National Defence, Veterans Affairs, or Parliament. Instead of investing in science and research, proper diagnostics, and treatments, VAC and our government chose to create more legislation, more red tape, and more roadblocks. Why is Canada not contributing to ongoing international research on these very serious and complex medical issues and illnesses?

Our VAC research department is pathetic. It's focused on geriatrics. It's totally isolated in Prince Edward Island. It's totally out of touch with the real world, and stuck in a rut. The VAC website is not helpful at all either. Why is the American research not on there? Why is the Canadian Blood Services' indefinite deferral of the XMRV for those of us diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome not on there? This came into effect in 2010.

If Canada can't or won't be part of the ongoing research, well then let's embrace the countries that are, mainly the U.S.A. Include us. Apply their findings, their very credible and conclusive science and research, and treatment approaches. Give us some hope, some answers, and eventually some quality of life. The U.S.A. has spent close to a billion dollars in the past 20 years to try to find answers, treatments that may be helpful. Since 2008 the U.S.A.'s Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses states that it's a real illness and differs from trauma and stress-related syndromes.

We have a Canadian professor from the University of Alberta, Dr. Gordon Broderick, who's working with the research advisory committee on Gulf War illness. He's also working with Dr. Nancy Klimas exactly on this XMRV. They're working on biomarkers right now. That is supported by the CDMRP.

Canada needs to implement something similar to what the U.S.A. has for veterans with medically unexplained multi-symptom illness and presumptive diseases, the nine infectious diseases, presumptive and associated diseases with radiation exposure related to the first Gulf War, the conflict in Iraq, or Afghanistan. Please go on the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs website for all the pertinent and life-saving information.

How dare Veterans Affairs Canada withhold such important science, possible treatments, and diagnoses from our vets and families and from the doctors and specialists trying to help us? Doing so just seems to prolong the pain and suffering. To many of us, it's criminal.

To date the approach and responses from our government and responsible authorities have been ones of total abandonment, criminal negligence, and total reckless disregard. This situation is not only a national tragedy but also a scandal of national interest.

Too many vets have died at the hands of our government. I'll name a few. There was Michael Peace, who had been in Bosnia. There was Terry Riordon, who died from depleted uranium and heavy metal toxicity. He was a Gulf War veteran. He died in April 1998. We're very familiar with his wife Susan, who has come to Ottawa numerous times. Brian Dyck had ALS. He was a Gulf War veteran. He died October 8, 2010. Minister Blackburn at the time came forward on October 15, 2010, basically saying that based on the latest medical research, our government had made changes so that veterans affected by ALS could obtain the help and support they needed and deserved more quickly than ever before. That was on October 15, 2010.

In the United States, through their research, in 2008 the VA established ALS as a presumptive compensable illness for all veterans with 90 days or more of continuous service in the military, with no need to prove anything. Right there we're already two years late on the research. Brian Dyck and his family weren't able to benefit from their legitimate diagnosis or to get any kind of treatment and help.

Veterans and families have earned, deserve, and need the best care this country has to offer. Veterans Affairs Canada is mandated to care for the veterans and their families, to acknowledge us, and to recognize the seriously ill and disabled modern veteran community. Every single disability application since 1990, for those living or deceased, needs to be reopened and re-examined with a fresh and bold new look in respect of the conclusive science and research.

In today's war zones, battlefields may not disable, but their effects may be felt when soldiers return home. Our war wounds may not be visible to the human eye, but that doesn't negate the fact that we are seriously ill.

It is said that a country is judged by how its veterans are treated and taken care of. I would say Canada has a failing grade.

If Canada can't or won't take care of us, then don't send us.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Madame Richard, for your presentation. We greatly appreciate it.

Now we'll go to five minutes of questions, starting with Mr. Chicoine.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To both Ms. Richards, thank you for coming here to testify and to share your experience with us.

You left your health behind when you went to war. All I can do is express our most sincere gratitude for the sacrifice you made. I would imagine that when one signs up for the armed forces, leaving one's health behind does not come to mind.

Your observations on the services offered to veterans seem rather damning. Therefore, I would like you to tell us about your experience. I would like you to tell us if, in your opinion, your illnesses are linked to depleted uranium and, if so, what leads you to think that.

9:30 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

That is a good question.

Do I think that it is linked to depleted uranium? Yes. I was tested by an independent team, as well as the services that had been offered to us by the Canadian system in 2000, and in that regard, clearly, the test was rather inconclusive. All of the governmental test results are negative and I was not surprised, because both companies that had been hired by the government admitted that they were incapable of conducting tests to detect the presence of depleted uranium. The fact that we were misled this way really caused a lot of damage among the veterans' community. The department's credibility was diminished.

When I left for the Gulf War, I was 29 years old and a triathlete. I celebrated my 30th birthday over there. I just turned 52 on March 17. That means I have been sick for 22 years.

I realized right away, even before leaving, that all of the injections received were not normal. That was very clear. Usually, nurses such as I follow a protocol. If something goes wrong, at least then, it can be determined which injection could have caused a particular reaction or illness. When 8 to 12 injections are received in the same day and it is not documented, how can it be determined what has made us unwell?

I did not feel well when I took the plane. Even my mother, the day before my departure for Trenton to go and take the C-130, could not hold me in her arms because I was in so much pain. She will never forget it. Already, while leaving, I did not feel well. On board this C-130, it took 34 hours to arrive in Saudi Arabia. We had a lot of time to not feel well. On site, we were ordered to take more injections that had not been tested or approved. We did not even know what they were. We were given orders. Another nurse would give my injections, and then, as a nurse, I would give soldiers their injections, knowing that it was not medication that had been approved or tested. It was done through the British; it was not even Canadian. I asked myself questions. I reacted to that. Afterwards, we were ordered to take a small pill every eight hours. I reacted badly to that as well. I had abnormal symptoms, like hypersalivation in the middle of the desert, vision problems, urinary and fecal incontinence, cramps and gynecological bleeding. It was too much.

On top of that, we were operating in the desert, where there are sand storms. We were exposed to everything in that environment, to local endemic illnesses that we were not used to. The Americans recognized nine communicable diseases linked directly to the environment in which we found ourselves. That is serious.

We started to put it all together. We did not feel well. At 29 years old, as a triathlete, I did not feel well. I realized that others were fine. It did not seem to affect them in the same way. As a nurse, I found that rather strange, but I told myself that maybe they had received a placebo and I had gotten the real thing. Who knows? One wonders.

The longer the war went on, the more we received prisoners of war and wounded. I remember, among other things, a surgery with Colonel Auger, with whom we worked. Afterwards, he became General Auger, then Surgeon General in 1998, and then he was let go in 1999.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Madame Richard, I do apologize, but we are past our time on this, and I'm trying to let as many members ask questions as possible. By all means, you may get a question furthering your testimony that you gave to Mr. Chicoine. I do apologize, but I want to give everyone an opportunity to ask questions.

We'll move on to Mr. Hayes, please, for five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Madame Richard, you were born into a military family. Thank you for carrying on the tradition. That tends to happen in military families.

I know in my own family, I didn't carry on the tradition, but I have 75 years, between my father and my two sisters, of service. My brother-in-law also fought in the Gulf War.

With that in mind, I just want you to know that all on this committee care deeply about our veterans, and I would suspect that everybody on this committee has some direct connection with military service.

I certainly agree with you when you state that you have earned and deserve the best care. I believe that fully. Having travelled many places around the world with my father, he has earned and deserves the best care. All veterans have, without question.

Now, when you heard that the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans' Health was going to be established to study depleted uranium, how did you feel?

9:35 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

I thought it was interestingly late, but on the other hand, should I be surprised? No.

I was quite curious about how the committee that was appointed by Minister Blaney would go ahead with this, because it is complex. Depleted uranium is something that I had never heard of when I went to war—and I was involved in this—let alone anyone else. You may be aware of depleted uranium, but most of us sure weren't.

I took the time to go through the report. One thing that shocked me before I even cracked it open was that when I looked at who Major-General Pierre Morisset was—it didn't ring a bell in my brain—I realized that he was the deputy surgeon general for four years. He was appointed surgeon general in 1992. So for four years before 1992, from 1988 on, he was totally aware of us being sent to the Gulf War. Being part of the office of the surgeon general, and then himself becoming surgeon general in 1992 until 1994, he knew exactly what protocol any of us received, or he should have known.

That shocked me to know that he was totally involved. I was sent to war and came back sick, and was told, “You malingerer, it's all in your head”. DND allowed me to get more and more sick, and did not see to my physical illnesses, just “PTSD”, or “malingerer”. I was shocked and very disappointed to see that he chose to do nothing.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Did you have an opportunity to provide documents and information to the scientific advisory committee?

9:40 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

I was never asked. I did write one e-mail. It was never responded to. I guess it went into cyberspace somewhere. I tried.

Like so many veterans, I think at this point now we've kind of lost trust and faith in Veterans Affairs. We've seen what they have not done for us.

So when General Morisset says that he only had, what, five e-mails, and he kind of interviewed two people, that's pretty sad. That is pretty sad.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

But you did have an opportunity to provide something, a couple of e-mails, or....

9:40 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

I did one e-mail, because I didn't believe in this report.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Through the chair, can we make arrangements to have a look at that e-mail? I don't think we've ever seen it. I've not seen any of the documentation, so....

Is that a request we can make, Mr. Chair?

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

I will confer with our clerk.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Okay.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

There may be an aspect of confidentiality, but the clerk will check with Dr. Morisset on it.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

In terms of the approach, Madame Richard, do you think it's a good approach to hear from both scientists and veterans when we study this issue, as we're doing? I mean, we're endeavouring to hear from all sides. I hope you're happy to be here today; I'm certainly happy for you to be here today.

We've listened to scientists, we've listened to committee members, we've listened to peer reviewers, and now we're listening to folks who have been most impacted.

Is that approach a reasonable approach?

9:40 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

It is a reasonable approach. I must say I'm disappointed in the choice of scientists. General Morisset says there's no testing to be done for depleted uranium, but there is. That wait is not acceptable. There are treatments available. When our soldiers come back and may have been in an environment where DU was present, you don't wait 10 years or 22 years to test them. You don't say, “Oh, by the way, you have no hair. Maybe it's depleted uranium. Maybe you were poisoned.” It's a little too late.

I found the references interesting in this report. I became very interested in Gulf War syndrome early on because I was affected myself. Being a nurse, being around the military hospital at the time, I saw a lot of people who had weird symptoms and a lot of weird things happening. No one could tell them what the hell was going on. When the Internet started up, we started researching. We've stayed abreast of what has been going on internationally, mainly with the Americans and the Brits. Canada did an interesting study back in 1998, the Goss Gilroy report. They were pressured by me and other vocal veterans to do something. They had opened a clinic and then closed it. Dr. Ken Scott was in charge. There was a phone line; it was disconnected. When they decided to do this report, it was like, wow, they're actually kind of interested. The only problem is it's a self-reporting questionnaire that has never been peer reviewed or had a follow-up. We know in the report of the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans' Health that they speak about our corps of engineers in Doha.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Madame Richard, thank you very much.

We now move on to Mr. Casey.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Richard, in the course of your opening remarks, you talked about the difficulty of having to carry the burden of proof when you're dealing with Veterans Affairs. This is not a question; it's a comment. You may or may not be aware that in the last report of this committee, the Liberal Party put forward a minority report recommending that the burden of proof be lowered for veterans. Rest assured that this has been heard by at least one party and it's going to be actioned.

I want to come back to something that you said in response to Mr. Hayes' question with regard to the e-mail you sent to the committee. We heard from the clerk that there might be a confidentiality issue. There would only be a confidentiality issue if you claimed confidentiality. Do you have the e-mail, and are you prepared to share it with the committee?

9:45 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

I will share it if I can track it down. I've had a lot of computer problems, but if I can, I will be glad to share it.

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

That would be appreciated.

I want to follow up on another question asked by Mr. Hayes. At the start of his questioning of you, he indicated that you have earned and deserve the best care.

If you were to be given what you've earned and deserve, what would it be? Could you compare it with the care that you have been afforded? If the government were to treat you right and give you the care you've earned and deserve, what would it look like?

9:45 a.m.

Lt (N) Louise Richard

What would it look like? First of all, it would look like a blank card, carte blanche.

I don't believe we should have to prove anything. At the end of the day, we were selected to go. We left healthy; we came back sick. It's not up to me to pay thousands of dollars to get tested, do research, bring reports, and then VAC denies me. Then I have to go back and run after more doctors, and more reports, and pay, and then borrow money from my mother to do tests and tests.

At the end of the day, Veterans Affairs is broken. It's a policy-driven system and it's bureaucrats. There is no scientific advisory anything in there. There is a research department, but they deal with the transition of veterans leaving the forces and going out on civvy street, or this or that.

How is that supposed to help me with complex, chronic, disabling physical and emotional symptoms daily? It doesn't seem to matter that I've proven it time and time again, because I've found the doctors and I've paid the money to get reports. If you have chronic neurodegenerative conditions, they're not going to improve tomorrow. We all know they'll worsen with time, so why do my care providers, every three or six months, have to write reports for Veterans Affairs for me to beg for 10 more treatments?

It's just insanity. It should not be. At the end of the day, too, here are all these medical reports and science given to bureaucrats, who have no medical knowledge, no medical expertise, and we know darn well, because I was involved in the privacy breach, sir, that those files go from Charlottetown to TAC, to a district office, to this person, to that person.

Who are they? Once you put in an application, or even ask for 30 chiropractic or massage sessions, whatever it may be, by the time it gets approved there's a time lapse. This chronic condition, or the condition this veteran is going after, will get worse because they have to wait. As far as I'm concerned, we need a scientific advisory committee of some kind.