Veterans Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Welcome to meeting number 48 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. For the first hour this evening, we have witnesses in connection with the study of the experience of women veterans. The second hour will be devoted to committee business.

Before we get started with our witnesses, I just want to remind everybody that tonight we're continuing our study on the experience of women veterans.

We have with us two witnesses here in person, and we have one witness online as well.

Just so that everyone knows, I will be chairing at least the first portion of the meeting. I expect the chair to arrive at some point during that first hour or thereabouts, and he will probably chair the second portion of the meeting when we move in camera. He asked me to fill in unexpectedly, so I am going to do that until he arrives.

For the first hour, we will have our witnesses for the study. We are joined here in person by two of them. Karen McCrimmon is a former member of Parliament and a retired lieutenant-colonel. We also have with us the Honourable Rebecca Patterson, a senator for Ontario. Joining us by video conference this evening is Lee-Anne Quinn, a retired major and a nurse practitioner.

We'll move right into our testimony.

I just want to remind everybody that if there is anything we deal with this evening that causes you any concern, or if you would like to seek assistance as a result of sensitive matters we may have to deal with, please reach out to our clerk. That applies to our witnesses, as well as to anyone else in the room, including our members. Please reach out, and we can make sure help is provided to you.

With that, I'll introduce our first witness. We'll start with Senator Patterson.

I'll turn the floor over to you. You have five minutes to make some opening remarks.

[Rebecca Patterson, Senator, Ontario, CSG]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, honourable members. Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss the experiences of female and women veterans. As the first woman CAF veteran appointed to the Senate, I appear before you as a fellow parliamentarian and as a veteran myself, having fully retired in January 2023.

I enrolled in the Canadian Armed Forces in January 1989. This was the same month that women started integration into all occupations, except those on submarines. I've personally experienced great advances for women since 1989. For example, I'm the first person with a military nursing background to lead at the rank of flag officer—rear-admiral—which was previously unheard of when I joined.

What has been slower to adapt is who we recognize as female and women veterans and the support we provide to them. Veterans are traditionally portrayed as white older men who are war fighters, resulting in women being less likely to identify and then be recognized as veterans who need service. This results in veteran services that are not tailored to sex and gender-specific issues.

Prior to my appointment at the Senate, I served in many different military domains. My experience is diverse and includes addressing sexual misconduct and culture change in the CAF, as well as leading military health care at the height of the pandemic and through the establishment of the women's health program. I was also the defence champion for women and facilitated the establishment of the defence team pride network, for which I was the interim champion. I understand the people who serve.

Women are one of the fastest-growing segments of military veterans in Canada, and the systems of support for women veterans were designed based on the male experience. This stems from research focusing on male veterans while being presented as gender-neutral. We have learned in health care that gender-neutral excludes women. While I don't deny that we share common experiences, more research is needed on the different sex and gender-specific health and well-being requirements.

I want to state clearly that you cannot address female and women's health without addressing their health while they serve in the Canadian Armed Forces or as members of the RCMP. What does this mean? Ideally, we prevent harm to women in the first place so they don't need to seek veteran services from VAC. It's about the continuity between active service and the support they receive for service-related injuries and illnesses. Women veterans' health is occupational health-related. It sits on a continuum between an initial event during service and their current well-being as a veteran. This remains true whether the disability presents itself immediately or in the future, and we absolutely cannot ignore this reality.

To improve transition and integration into post-service life and to potentially prevent injury to current CAF members, information exchange between the CAF and VAC is essential. By routinely sharing data, such as on injury and illness patterns and trends, we can better understand the impact of military service on women, better prepare for services that veterans will require and better fund them.

Veterans are not a homogenous group. They are an intersection of identities that influence experiences and expectations for the supports they seek and need post-service. Therefore, I would also caution you to not conflate female and women veterans' service requirements with those of other equity-seeking groups. We cannot lump together all those with diverse needs into one program or one funding group without inevitably failing to address key areas that are unique to each specific group. All groups should be considered individually, although harmoniously, so that we can ensure equity and, ultimately, better lived experiences for those who have sustained harm in the service of our country.

The final point I would like to raise before questions is this: The ideal outcome is equitable and fair support for CAF and RCMP members and veterans. The CAF is modernizing and changing, which means that our veterans' needs are changing as well. VAC's mandate to support the well-being of veterans and their families and to promote remembrance of achievements shouldn't be seen as a barrier to doing things differently. We must be proactive in anticipating veterans' needs and not reactive, as is unfortunately so often the case.

As Canadians who are willing to give their all in service of the country, we deserve better.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to Ms. Karen McCrimmon for her opening remarks for the next five minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Karen McCrimmon, Lieutenant-Colonel (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to all the honourable members here tonight. It's an honour to be with you today and to share my experiences. I'd like give you some ideas on how you can help make a difference.

I'll get right to the point. With five minutes, I might be speaking quickly, but I'll do my very best.

We need you to ask the tough questions and listen to the answers. It might seem obvious, but sometimes we need to be reminded that we can't actually solve problems until we really understand them. Then, once you've listened, you need to action them.

That's why I'm very grateful for this opportunity. You've asked the question. That's so important, and we appreciate it very much. That's point number one.

Point number two is to ask for a plan. There's a saying in the military that failing to plan is planning to fail. To make any type of major changes inside an organization, you need a comprehensive, coordinated and measurable plan. Ask for it.

Point number three is that what you permit, you promote. I would argue that the RCMP, the CAF and VAC have permitted the neglect of women and other groups that did not fit into their view of the ideal or acceptable RCMP officer, soldier or veteran. This needs to stop.

Point number four is that representation matters. You need a critical mass of committed individuals to confront and change a harmful climate or culture. Today, in the military and the RCMP, a considerable number of women are rising into the senior and influential positions of their organizations, and we're starting to see real changes happening in culture and in the awareness of women-specific issues. However, we don't see that same representative change in VAC.

We need more women at decision-making levels, and more veterans, men and women. As such, one easy starting point would be the naming of a fully empowered and fully funded ministerial advisory board for women veterans. In short, hire more veterans, especially women, who have planning expertise or proven hands-on experience. Women are 50% of the military's future recruiting pool. Not fixing the military women-specific issues found within VAC, CAF and the RCMP will clearly have significant follow-on effects for those organizations.

Point five is that feedback loops prevent more harm. I heard the senator say exactly the same thing. How does Veterans Affairs capture injury trends or illnesses like cancers, and how does it feed that important information back upstream, back to the military and back to the RCMP to prevent more injury?

Where is the feedback loop inside VAC for decisions that have been overturned by the VRAB. I don't even know if there is one. Physical injuries, like musculoskeletal injuries, are still being caused today by equipment and uniforms that weren't designed for a woman's body. Uniforms and equipment are all replaced periodically, so there needs to be a continual assessment of their suitability for women. This is where GBA+ comes into play.

There are also psychological and spiritual or emotional injuries like PTSD; moral injury; and institutional betrayal, which are also still happening because we aren't asking the tough questions and listening to the answers, especially when the listening hurts. Listening needs to be followed by action.

In closing, how can this committee best help hold VAC accountable for improving the health and well-being of women veterans? You must demand, first, to see a strategic plan. Once again, failing to plan is planning to fail. Second, demand more data collection, research and transparency for veterans and the public, including sex-segregated data on VAC and VRAB claim processes, representation, budgets and spending. Third, we need more women and veterans within the department as case managers, supervisors, project officers, researchers, etc. Fourth, we need the establishment of feedback loops for all relevant departments to prevent reoccurrences of negative or harmful circumstances.

Finally, if we want real change, we must remember that whatever behaviour we reward is the behaviour we are going to get. We must demand, expect and reward better.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Mrs. McCrimmon.

The final opening remarks will come from Lee-Anne Quinn, who's with us online.

The floor is yours for the next five minutes, Ms. Quinn.

[Lee-Anne Quinn, Major (Retired), Nurse Practitioner, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and honourable members, for this invite.

I must admit right up front that I did not really understand or anticipate what was going to be expected this evening, so I don't have a great big script in front of me that has been written. I just know this: I've had 23 years of regular force experience and then four years as an honorary lieutenant-colonel for a reserve unit in my hometown. That covers Peterborough, Cobourg and Belleville.

Over my years of experience, I have seen a lot of changes. I've seen some good and some bad. Obviously, as my two predecessors have spoken about, more changes are definitely needed in order to bring the standards of equality up to where they should be.

I could give a lot of examples, but I don't think this is the forum to do that. I'm mostly here to listen and to participate when I am asked to do so.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Ms. Quinn.

I apologize if we failed as a committee to make sure you understood exactly what would transpire. I apologize on our behalf for that. However, we're certainly glad you're here with us and that you are going to be able to contribute to the questions and answers, which will come now. I know you'll have a lot of good insight to provide us.

I want to thank all three of you for your opening remarks and also for your service to our country. We can never say that enough, and we can never do enough to try to honour it. This study is certainly a part of that. Your being here tonight will be very helpful to us as a committee, without question.

We'll now turn to our rounds of questioning. In our first round, we have six minutes per questioner, and up in the first round is Michelle Ferreri.

The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for having me today. I'm honoured to be here.

Again, I'll reiterate what the chair has said: Thank you for your service.

I'm going to toot Lee-Anne's horn a bit here because she didn't tell you what she's accomplished, and I think it's really important that we all know it. Lee-Anne Quinn has received the Order of Military Merit, the highest order a member of the military can receive. She was the honorary lieutenant-colonel to the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. She is an all-star athlete. She is a Guinness World Records record holder. She's an RN. She's a nurse practitioner. She received the Florence Nightingale Award in 2007 as Canada's top nurse. She has served and practised medicine around the world in war-torn countries. She is also a survivor of PTSD.

I think that tell you the magnitude of what this woman is in a bit of a nutshell. Lee-Anne brings so much knowledge and compassion that it is such an honour to say she's from my riding.

Lee-Anne, this study really is to help us as parliamentarians here in Parliament do better, and I think you have the knowledge inside of your head to help us do that.

One of the key issues in this study on women veterans is around mental health, and I would love to hear—if you're comfortable, without triggering you or causing you too much distress—what you can suggest to parliamentarians regarding Veterans Affairs' supporting women, in particular around the mental and physical health aspect. Please feel free to give as many examples as possible of what we could do better.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

Thank you for your kind words, MP Michelle Ferrari.

As Michelle alluded to, yes, I am a PTSD survivor. The first thing I can say, on the advertising and offering of support from Veterans Affairs when I left the Canadian Forces, is that I did not tap into it for five years of my post-military career. That's due to a number of reasons, but one of the reasons is that I didn't know what Veterans Affairs had to offer for me. I think one important part is that you need to reach out to those who are retiring and those who are veterans and say you are a service being offered that can help pave the path for them to get some help.

I know that improvements have been made on that level of voice and advertising. I still hear from my friends who have had recent retirements from the military that they really don't know what they can ask or who to ask at Veterans Affairs, so they ask for guidance from me to take those steps.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

That's great. I think navigating the system is a big challenge, with a lot of bureaucracy as well.

I also want to point out that Lee-Anne opened up a clinic in our community and, on her own time, helps the most vulnerable living on the street. I just can't say enough about what this human brings to the table.

I think you're between a bit of a rock and a hard place, because you don't want to dismiss the value of what the Canadian Forces brought to your life—if I may be so bold as to say that—but you also sort of say, listen, there is a lot of room for improvement.

I would put it back to you, Lee-Anne, and ask you for some key things that you would like to see done differently, if there are any key things that jump out at you or specific examples you would like to give the committee.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

Some key things that jump out to me are.... I'm not speaking specifically as a retired regular military officer. My next little talk will be in reference to my position as the honorary lieutenant-colonel with an army reserve unit.

I will tell you that the incidents that happened to me were definitely the result of my being a female with a short stature. With regard to the honorary colonel and honorary lieutenant-colonel who were there prior to my assuming that position, there's no way that neglect or prejudice would have been handed to them, as they would not have tolerated it.

If some help is needed, from my end, in looking at the grand picture, I would say that assistance is needed in the reserve units in particular—because I can only speak about the army reserve unit that I was honorary colonel for—to enlighten them to the fact that females can hold positions that require respect as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you.

That's the time we have for that particular block of questions.

We'll now move to our second block of questions, and we have Ms. Rechie Valdez for six minutes.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who have joined us today. It is truly an honour to hear your testimony. Thank you so much for your sacrifice for our country.

I'm going to direct my questions to former lieutenant-colonel McCrimmon.

As you are the first woman to command a Canadian Forces air force squadron, I want to get your perspective on what the different needs are for women veterans who work for the air force, the navy or the army. Do you have any insight there?

[Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much for that question. I think it's really important.

My background is the army and the air force, the senator's is the navy, and Lee-Anne's is the air force and the army, so we have a lot of everything here. However, I think we can say that, environmentally, yes, there were some specifics of equipment that didn't work or uniforms that didn't fit, like boots and webbing, and it was even about the size of certain weaponry that you were expected to operate.

There are differences among the services, but it all comes down to wanting the CAF and VAC to be willing to say, well, it's different. Every time we order a new piece of equipment, we have to make sure it fits women as well as men.

We can probably all tell you stories of particular pieces of equipment that didn't fit. Flak jackets, for me, in Afghanistan—and I'm of a fairly normal stature—didn't fit. They were very uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. I've heard they've gotten better; that's good. It was about 20 years ago that I was in Afghanistan.

That's what we need, that continual improvement. You just can't do it once and forget about it.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

You have given your five recommendations to the committee already, so I'm going to just ask, Senator Patterson, if you want to weigh in. Are there any legislative or mandate changes you would recommend? Do you have a top three or five?

[Rebecca Patterson]

Thank you very much.

Because I'm so new, I haven't filled out my paperwork, which I'm going to do.

Lee-Anne, it's wonderful to see you, by the way.

I think what's really important is when we're looking.... Is it legislative changes, or is it improving policy and process as we move forward? I think mandate letters really need to be considered as we move forward with what the role of VAC is. I will use my previous CAF experience of being told, “Well, we don't do that. It's not in our mandate letter.” It isn't because there are bad people there. These are people who are short of staff, but that is not an excuse when you're trying to access services. Only the Canadian Armed Forces can fill that gap, so when we look at mandate letters, for example, it has to be that VAC reaches out to you rather than you trying to find VAC.

Even if you choose to not do something at that point as a veteran, that's okay, but we were told that's not in their mandate letter, so I think you probably need to review the mandate to make sure there's no gap.

Have things improved? Absolutely, and I believe other committees are going to talk to that very effect. However, you can't just talk to the CAF or the RCMP about that. You have to talk to VAC, probably at the same time, so I would suggest maybe not legislative but policy change.

The next thing you need to have a look at is that you have to name it. Include the term “woman veteran”. It's not a dirty term. It's not a qualifier. Whether it be in mandate letters or whatever, you need to disaggregate “veteran”—not all the time but at times. When you're talking about it, call it what it is. If you hide the language, it doesn't exist. That's my culture background coming in.

As you see, there may not be legislative changes right now. I don't have that depth of knowledge; I will have to pass that to my colleagues. However, I would suggest to start there. Even on your committee, in everything you talk about, talk about women veterans. I think that would be wonderful.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Senator Patterson, really quickly, you always talk about the transition into civilian life. You've successfully been able to do it—all three of you have, actually. Can you give some advice as to what we can include there? What made you successful and able to pursue these careers after serving?

[Rebecca Patterson]

I think I'm still in transition, to be honest with you, but thank you. That's a good question.

I think we have to understand cultures. In institutions like the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP, this is our family. This is our world. The hardest part of transition is going on to nothing. You lose purpose. You get called “Ms.” or “Mrs”. We lose a lot of pieces.

That is not an issue in and of itself, but what can happen with the improvement of services is that, if you have a community of people who are used to having structure around them—not because we're automatons and can't think for ourselves but because it's the world we come from—it makes transition smoother. This is why that cinch between VAC, the RCMP and the Canadian Armed Forces is so important and you don't leave people struggling with “Who am I?” Connection and making people feel like they're put together are going to be quite important.

I would recommend that, as a committee, you look at transition services. Name this for what it is and remember that women veterans are less likely to seek follow-on VAC services than men are because we don't always see ourselves in them. If you can, make recommendations surrounding transition services, naming this for what it is and having a push system for veterans rather than having them chase you down.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you.

Ms. Normandin, the floor is now yours for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to thank the three witnesses who are here with us.

Thank you not just for your participation in the study, but also for your service. You are very inspiring women. I feel spoiled to be participating in the meeting with you this evening.

I would like to address my first question, which will be preceded by a brief preamble, to Senator Patterson. The government made an announcement today concerning the problem of homelessness among veterans. The announcement stated that veterans from Indigenous, LGBT or black communities had more problems with housing. Women veterans were not mentioned at all.

I would like you to tell us about your experience in relation to women veterans and the problem of homelessness.

[Rebecca Patterson]

Thank you very much. Would you mind if I responded in English?

It's easier for me. I don't have all the vocabulary.

I have worked with homeless veterans through Soldiers Helping Soldiers, and while it's a small group—with groups in Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto—the one thing we notice is that women veterans are absolutely invisible. They could be living rough, meaning they're couch surfing, or they are homeless and lost in the system. You can't find them. When you bring them in, you can clump them with other men veterans, but many have suffered significant abuse—military sexual trauma, etc.

I was certainly excited to hear about the announcement today. However, I think it's going to be critical that we look at pushing forward with sex- and gender-specific research on who homeless women veterans are, as well as on some of the—I say root causes—complex issues that contribute to homelessness among women veterans. Of course, there is also a requirement that VAC step up and look at sex- and gender-specific programs to move them beyond homelessness into benefits.

It is a very dire problem. What we aren't talking about are those who don't make it—those who overdose, who commit suicide, who die at the hands of violent abuse. I think this announcement is promising, but I didn't once hear the word “woman” in there.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Were you surprised that the announcement said nothing about women veterans? Are there very often an announcements that concern women veterans?

As well, the Gender-based Analysis Plus, or GBA Plus, relating to the various programs may be a little slow, if not completely absent.

[Rebecca Patterson]

Yes, that's right.

I agree with that completely.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

My next question is for all three witnesses.

Ms. Quinn talked about advertising of resources. I would like you to tell us about access to resources. I will give you a specific example, but I invite you to address the issue more broadly.

When the Department of National Defence created the Community Support for Sexual Misconduct Survivors Grant Program, it became apparent that the services were offered far from military bases, far from the places where members of the military were located.

In the case of the services offered, is there not a problem in terms of access, geographically or in various other aspects?