Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 18, 2025, the committee is meeting as part of its study on suicide prevention among veterans.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide a trigger warning for people who are viewing this.

We will be discussing experiences related to suicide and grief. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or you need help, please advise our clerk.

For all witnesses and members of Parliament, it is important to recognize that these are difficult discussions.

For our witnesses, if you do not feel comfortable at any point, please let us know. We can pause our committee for you.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members can attend in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I will ask our in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

To ensure that the meeting goes smoothly, I would like to outline a few rules for the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. Please mute yourself when you aren't speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Finally, I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. I don't believe any members are attending the meeting via Zoom this morning.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

As an individual, we have Dr. Denise Brend,

assistant professor at Laval University, as well as Mr. Stephen La Salle.

From The Trail - Transition Housing, we have Chloé Deraiche, executive director, and retired Lieutenant‑Colonel Bruno Plourde, CD, founder and administrator.

From the Toronto Police Service, we have Constable Aaron Dale, program coordinator of the military veterans wellness program.

We will start by inviting you to deliver your opening remarks for a period of about five minutes.

Once all the witnesses have delivered their opening remarks, the rest of the meeting will be a question and answer period with the committee members.

I invite Dr. Brend to start for five minutes.

[Dr. Denise M. Brend, Assistant Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual]

Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the committee and everyone else. Thank you very much for having me today.

I begin by offering my heartfelt gratitude to all members and veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces for their service and sacrifice.

My name is Denise Michelle Brend. I am a professor at Université Laval in the school of social work and criminology. I am a social worker and psychotherapist who has been working for over two decades with people surviving trauma. I am also the daughter of a veteran.

I was invited here to offer complementary insights to that of system actors about issues related to trauma, psychological distress and mental health, covering three themes.

The first theme is the psychological and organizational mechanisms that contribute to the emergence of trauma in high-stress environments. I think the first thing I want to touch on here is the complexity of trauma. Trauma does not occur to an individual. It occurs to an individual and everyone close to them. It occurs to the people helping them. It occurs to their communities. It is something that does not respect time and does not respect space. It is a very powerful phenomenon.

In order to manage it, we have to be very proactive. Our organizations and institutions must recognize it, understand it, realize what needs to be done and do what needs to be done while trying not to retraumatize people. When we fail to do this, we risk committing institutional betrayal, which exacerbates trauma. Institutional betrayal is a failure to protect people. It is an inadequate response to harm. It is creating conditions that enable harm. It is when we give retaliation and punishment to people who seek help because they've been harmed, or when we place institutional priorities over the well-being of people. I think it's very easy to understand how experiencing those things, for trauma survivors, would in fact make their recovery much more difficult.

The second theme is the impacts of chronic distress on mental health, resilience and suicidal behaviour. If we think about chronic distress as staying in a state of extreme anxiety, sorrow, pain or anger, this can be a risk factor for traumatization. It can also be a symptom of traumatization, and it can entrench and further amplify traumatization.

An important word I would like to say about resilience is that we've really changed, adapted and expanded what we understand resilience to be. In the past, it was considered to be the capacity of an individual. We understand now that the capacity of the individual is actually a very small part of resilience. What's more important is the context and the support that individual is in. We cannot be resilient if we are within a situation where we are being further harmed or betrayed. We have to look to individuals, communities, institutions and society.

There is a clear dose-response relationship: As psychological distress goes up, so do completed suicides. In the military, we often see moral distress or moral injury. This is something that's also been reliably related to increased suicidality. These are things we want to address, and looking at institutional betrayal can be an effective manner in which to do that.

The third theme is that the best intervention and psychosocial support practices are grounded in trauma-informed approaches. Trauma-informed approaches basically mean that we don't just look at the service we're giving. We look at the entire network providing that service, from governments to policy to physical environment all the way down. We continually evaluate, and we do so with the stakeholders in the system.

I don't have any further recommendations to give you for interventions. I've looked at the briefs you've received, and I think you've had excellent testimony. What I would say is that for psychosocial support, how might we promote well-being rather than try to treat a problem? How can we leverage the strengths and expertise of the veteran community to transparently co-develop personally relevant—culturally, historically and identity-related—non-pathologizing opportunities to build pride, trust, belonging and sense-making to enjoy their lives as they have transitioned out of the military?

The good news is that when we try to reduce trauma through trauma-informed systems, we also actually reduce distress. We get a larger payoff from trauma-informed approaches than just dealing with trauma.

In conclusion, I'd like to congratulate Veterans Affairs for engaging in institutional courage; for being committed to seek truth and engage in moral action despite the unpleasantness, risk and short-term cost; and for continuing in the pledge to make veterans' lives better.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Dr. Brend.

I would like to welcome Mr. La Salle.

We will give you the floor, sir. Thank you very much.

[Stephen La Salle, As an Individual]

Good morning, Madam Chair and fellow committee members.

My name is Stephen La Salle. I proudly served for 12 years as a reservist with the Cadets and Junior Canadian Rangers support group, first as a cadet instructor cadre officer and later as a unit public affairs representative with regional cadet support unit central at CFB Borden.

In 2018, a training injury caused severe ligament damage and complex regional pain syndrome, one of the most painful conditions known. Despite exhaustive treatments, my condition deteriorated, and by the summer of 2021, I was bed-bound.

By this point, my mind was in a very dark place. I felt like a burden on everyone, especially my family. I had lost my identity as a Canadian Armed Forces member and my independence as an individual. I struggled with nightmares and insomnia. I was exhausted both mentally and physically and had little desire to keep moving forward with life.

What kept me going and stopped me from surrendering to the darkness was my family, especially my two sons, Evan and Nathan, as well as great support from my counsellor Ashley Fader, an occupational therapist by the name of Julie Geronimo and the operational stress injury clinic in London, Ontario.

A below-the-knee amputation in October 2021 slowed the progression, but inoperable nerve damage has left me unable to use a prosthetic. Today, as you see, I rely on a wheelchair to get around.

The physical and mental trauma of my injuries, combined with service-related experience, has left me with a diagnosis of complex PTSD and a daily struggle with my mental health, but here's the hard truth: My greatest challenge after release was not the injuries; it was and still is navigating Veterans Affairs Canada. Bureaucratic delays and denials have compounded my mental health struggles so severely that at one point in my journey my counsellor recommended limiting my contact with VAC to select times each week because of the increased stress it was causing.

I will give you some examples.

Days before my release, I was informed that my approved condition was invalid because the injured limb no longer existed and, as such, I would not be entitled to receive any income until my amputation was labelled as an approved condition. This process could have taken up to a year had the Royal Canadian Legion not stepped in to advocate for me.

A crane to lift my wheelchair into the back of my truck was approved, but the protective cab to shield the wheelchair from the elements was deemed an accessory.

It took over two years to approve modifying a bathroom so I could shower safely and independently without the aid of a PSW.

Unfortunately, these aren't isolated incidents. They represent systematic obstacles that erode trust and push veterans into despair. When benefits are delayed or denied, quality of life suffers and suicide risk increases.

I urge this committee to help VAC recognize the fundamental truth: Every delay, every denial and every unnecessary hurdle is not just paperwork; it is a weight that can break a veteran's spirit. Behind every file number is a person fighting to hold on to hope.

We served our country with loyalty and courage; we should not have to fight the very system meant to protect us.

I implore this committee to recommend making changes needed to ensure that no veteran feels abandoned or driven to the edge like I was because of bureaucracy.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Monsieur La Salle, thank you very much for your courage, sir.

I would like to offer the floor to Madame Deraiche.

Thank you very much.

[Chloé Deraiche, Executive Director, The Trail – Transition Housing Inc.]

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for having us here today to share our observations on the ground and propose a few recommendations.

The Trail is an organization that provides assistance and housing to veterans who are transitioning to civilian life. We currently operate four points of service in Quebec, including a shelter. We're growing.

I'm joined today by my colleague retired Lieutenant‑Colonel Bruno Plourde. He served for 40 years, was a unit commander and was deployed many times, including to Afghanistan.

Every day, my team and I welcome men and women who have served this country with honour, as well as their families. Too often, we welcome them at their most vulnerable, when they no longer have any reference points, no more missions and sometimes no more hope. I once had a veteran say to me, “When I got to the The Trail, my release date was July 2. I had everything planned for the 3rd; the rope was ready. If I hadn't walked in here that day, there would have been no going back.”

The suicide rate in the veteran community has not decreased in nearly 40 years. The suffering continues, evolves and transforms, but it doesn't diminish. Why? It's because we have a systemic problem. There is no follow-up after they're released from military life.

The organizational culture of the Canadian Armed Forces values strength, resilience and endurance. Those are essential qualities in a military context, but they become barriers when it comes time to ask for help.

Asking for support is still too often seen as an admission of weakness, and that deeply ingrained perception leads to dangerous silence. Many fear being judged, removed from service or medically released. Others feel as if they don't deserve any help, as if they're an impostor, especially if they haven't been deployed.

[Bruno Plourde, CD, Founder and Administrator, The Trail – Transition Housing Inc.]

The main challenge that veterans in crisis face is accessing physical and mental health services after their release.

Veterans are social orphans upon release. Overnight, they lose access to support resources, including doctors. They sit on a wait-list for months to be assigned to a doctor in the civilian system.

Disorders, mainly mental health disorders, that were underlying at the time of their release will manifest themselves at some point. When the situation takes a turn for the worse, veterans have no support or resources to help them.

Staff in the provincial health care system are unfamiliar with Veterans Affairs Canada's administrative procedures. They are already overwhelmed with administrative tasks, which means that civilian doctors will even have to refuse to fill out documents because of their complexity, even if they're offered compensation.

As far as I know, there is no mechanism in Quebec for identifying veterans within the health care system. As a result, they aren't treated based on a full picture of their health, which means that they don't receive the care specific to their situation.

The fact that Veterans Affairs Canada has withdrawn from providing frontline health services in recent years reinforces the perception that veterans are left without direct support and that there has been a loss of expertise in treating health issues specific to the veteran community because of the disappearance of those in-house services.

Here are a few facts for you to consider.

The Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada do not have a system in place to transfer medical records between themselves. That means that veterans have to make an access to information request to access their own file, which will be transferred to another federal organization.

The transition services for Canadian Forces are mandated to support veterans until their release. After that, the community takes over.

Veterans Affairs Canada also does not proactively offer support services. Veterans have to chase down those services.

There's no mechanism to transfer files between the federal government and provincial governments.

Veterans Affairs Canada delivers services to veterans, but the key to accessing the services is in the hands of someone who doesn't even know they have that key in their kit, and that's the doctor. Veterans have to go looking for this key, sometimes putting their health and even their lives at risk.

During that process, that's when veterans are most vulnerable. They have to make decisions or draft documents that will have a significant impact on their lives.

It's also no good blaming the front-line managers and respondents at Veterans Affairs Canada. They're doing the best they can, given the training, autonomy and support they receive from their organization. We're talking about processes, processes and more processes.

Finally, we're convinced that prevention and local teamwork are the only effective ways to reduce suicidal ideation. It isn't cool, it isn't photogenic, it isn't clickbait, and it isn't good for statistics, because it's impossible to measure the success of prevention, because nothing happened. It's the first time that nothing has happened, so that's good.

Everywhere, it's difficult and complex. As with homelessness, when it comes to mental health and other challenges that veterans face, prevention saves lives.

All we are asking for is consistency, a little honour, a little humanity and, above all, respect.

Let's talk less and do better together.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Plourde and Ms. Deraiche.

Mr. Plourde, we want to thank you for your service to Canada.

I now invite Constable Dale to take his five minutes.

[Constable Aaron Dale, Program Coordinator, Military Veterans Wellness Program, Toronto Police Service]

Madam Chair, MP Richards and members of the committee, thank you for being here today.

My name is Aaron Dale. I'm a constable with Toronto police. Prior to that, I served 16 years in the Canadian Armed Forces, in the reserves and in special operations. In 2018, my transition out of the military was much harder than I expected. The military culture teaches a person to endure pain, never quit and put a team first. These traits keep you alive in service, but they can become barriers when you're actually seeking help for yourself afterward.

I didn't recognize that I needed help until a close friend told me so. When I finally reached out, Veterans Affairs Canada, the Legion and peer support all played a critical role in my recovery.

As a new police officer, I began recognizing military veterans in Toronto who were suicidal, homeless and in crisis. Together, Constable Jeremy Burns and I built the military veterans wellness program. This is a community policing initiative that unites key stakeholders, such as VAC, the Legion, DND, OPP, RCMP, PHNX PSYCH, Mediatwist, DGMPRA and many others—all to support veterans in crisis.

We developed specialized training that teaches first responders how to identify a veteran, understand their service-related challenges, recognize the signs of suicide and crisis, build an empathetic connection to safely de-escalate a veteran, influence a veteran to actually accept help in that critical moment and then connect them directly to the services of VAC, the Legion and OSISS.

These services already exist and they're very good, but for a veteran who is struggling, it can be very difficult to ask for help and navigate the support or actually trust the institutions after service. That's why this program exists: We train first responders to break down these barriers through compassion, negotiation and influence. First responders are uniquely positioned to be the conduit between a veteran in crisis and the organizations that can actually save their lives. They actually saved mine.

This program grew quickly because Canadians want to help and Canadians want to help veterans. As of today, we've trained about 22,000 first responders across 150 different agencies. The veteran in crisis referral form has been adopted by several police services. The RCMP is using it to actually support police veterans who are also struggling. More importantly, this program has successfully de-escalated and referred approximately 250 military veterans directly to VAC, the Legion and OSISS, which then reach out to offer all their supports. These outcomes are not theoretical; they are lived, practical, proven and repeatable.

My recommendations to this committee are pretty straightforward.

First we are requesting government leadership and support to ensure that every paramedic, firefighter, correctional officer and police officer has the skills to recognize a veteran in crisis, connect with compassion, de-escalate and then provide a voluntary, on-the-spot referral so they can receive immediate support. Currently, only police officers can make this voluntary referral, but expanding this to all first responders is a low-cost, proven and nationally scalable solution that has already been saving lives.

Second, our national 988 suicide line should have a veteran-only option. This would allow a veteran to be immediately connected to a crisis worker who understands them, understands their culture and understands the supports available.

Third, we are seeking federal support to adapt and deliver this program to all health care providers in Canada. In partnership with CIMVHR, and other national stakeholders, we have already set the stage to create a certified curriculum that equips all health care professionals to recognize veterans, understand their service-related issues and address their complex medical needs.

Each of these recommendations is very realistic and affordable and closes the gaps in our system for the highest risk of suicide. We already know the cost of inaction. In the United States, most veterans who kill themselves are not connected to care and we cannot allow this to happen here. This program is already being adapted internationally in the United States, Australia and Ukraine and for global policing networks, such as the International Association of Chiefs of Police, as well as all 196 Interpol countries.

With federal support, Canada can help shape NATO's and the United Nations' standard for post-conflict veteran care while also ensuring that we remain committed to learning from the success and lessons of all of our international partners.

Supporting veterans is not just a social responsibility; it's actually a strategic investment in Canada's national defence and the operational readiness of our allies. It tells every Canadian war fighter—past, present and future—that Canada will stand with them after their service ends.

We ask our service members to risk their lives, and we will continue to do that. In return, we must ensure that no veteran falls through the cracks and that those living with service-related trauma receive the highest standard of care without hesitation and without fail.

The decisions you make here in this study will save lives: veterans' lives, first responders' lives and Canadians' lives, people who are all struggling with suicidal ideation.

Thank you for listening, and thank you to the Toronto Police Service and our entire team back at home who made this possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Constable Dale. I appreciate your being here, and certainly thank you for your service, sir.

We will start now with Mr. Richards for six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thank you.

I have lots of questions. First of all, to all of our veterans with us, thank you for your service.

I'll start with you, Mr. La Salle.

We heard, in your testimony this morning, something we should never hear. The greatest source of stress and trauma for you was dealing with the institution that's supposed to be there to help you.

You related some of the challenges you had in relation to getting some of the supports you needed from Veterans Affairs. Has that situation been resolved, and if it has, how long did it take to resolve?

[Stephen La Salle]

For the most part, it has been resolved. I think a lot of it just took a lot of tenacity from me, the occupational therapist and the team. Early on, the challenges were really outside organizations that advocated and pushed.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

It seems like it's often the case that, for those who succeed, it comes from outside organizations or another veteran who comes along and shares their experience.

What kind of a message do you think it sends to other veterans who know they might need help? What kind of reluctance do you think it creates for them to want to deal with Veterans Affairs when they hear stories like yours?

[Stephen La Salle]

I think a lot of times, veterans just want to give up. From speaking to other veterans, I guess you could say that's the thinking they have, that it's easier just to give up than to deal with the system, and that's what the system wants us to do.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Yes. All I have to say is that I hope we can make some change. I hope this study will be the starting place of that.

I know it wouldn't have been easy for you to come and tell us your experiences and your story, so thank you for the courage to do that. It's hopefully going to make a difference for others.

Let me turn to Madame Deraiche.

That transition period, when a veteran is transitioning into civilian life and leaving the military, is, I think, a pretty critical and important part of how their experience will go from there forward.

Do you think that, if the government did a better job at transition, there would be fewer veterans who end up in crisis situations?

[Chloé Deraiche]

Yes, I think that the transition process to civilian life after military service has to be made more humane. I think Mr. La Salle's testimony is extremely relevant. It's consistent with what we see on a daily basis in our offices.

We actually provide administrative assistance because, for veterans who come to our offices, just receiving an email from Veterans Affairs Canada often triggers a great deal of stress even before they open it.

I have regularly heard the speech we just heard about the fact that people prefer to give up on the benefits to which they're entitled because it's too difficult to apply for them.

Veterans are sleeping in their cars for years. When they're doing well, it's already difficult to fill out all kinds of forms and get access to a doctor to fill out the pink, blue or yellow form. On the other hand, when they're not doing well, it's like in The Twelve Tasks of Asterix. That's truly the reality for veterans. That's where organizations like ours come in to complement what already exists.

In our opinion, we need to be part of the solution. Yes, I think something has to change in the release process so that there's a continuum of services toward the end of military service and beyond. We have to avoid red tape and the fact that people who already have mental health challenges are caught up in processes that increase their stress.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I could summarize that as less process and a little more humanization, trying to make sure that the organizations that are there to help are able to help, instead of having to deal with administration and red tape. Would that be a fair summary? Okay.

I'll go to you, Mr. Dale, on that note. Obviously, we often hear that there's a need for that peer-to-peer, veteran-to-veteran support. Your program is an example. Although it might not be direct peer support, it's certainly a veteran-to-veteran thing.

I want to hear from you about how important you think the ability for veterans to help other veterans is, making sure that those opportunities for grassroots or community-led peer support exist.

[Cst Aaron Dale]

The benefit of peer support is that the person has the same lived experiences. The big thing about our program is that it teaches other police officers, who know nothing about the military, what the culture is all about and what the struggle is all about, so they can provide empathy. Empathy is a key component of negotiations, which could be used more broadly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dale.

We will now go to Madame Auguste.

[Tatiana Auguste, Liberal, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I'd like to thank all the veterans who are here. I'd also like to thank them for their service to the country.

Ms. Deraiche, Mr. Plourde talked about the importance of prevention. He said that investing in prevention would really be the right thing to do.

Can you tell us about the most relevant methods that you use at The Trail — Transition Housing that improve veterans' living conditions?

[Chloé Deraiche]

Being able to talk to human beings in person can already have a positive effect on veterans who need services. The fact that they can come to our offices already makes a difference.

We obviously have a multidisciplinary team of specialists in social work, criminology, special education and sexology, among other things. We're also available virtually. We have a variety of intervention methods.

We have a number of points of service, including a shelter for veterans—with or without children—who are experiencing housing insecurity or homelessness. We have a farm, and we also work with horses through our partner, Équi-Sens, which offers intervention services with the horses. We also use other means, such as music, which people really enjoy, including guitar and piano lessons. We also use creative arts, model kits, yoga and so on.

I think it's important to use a variety of intervention methods. Having as many as possible is part of our philosophy. We also try very hard to work with and for the veteran community. We develop ad hoc projects according to individual wishes as well.

We do a lot of integration volunteering, since veterans need to still feel useful and feel that they can serve again. However, since it isn't possible for them to take on full-time work due to certain health issues, they give a few hours of their time, get back into a routine, break their isolation and feel useful again. We use a lot of approaches.

[Tatiana Auguste, Liberal, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Plourde, given your unique status, as it were, if you had one recommendation to make about suicide prevention that works very well, what would it be?

[Bruno Plourde]

I would say that it would be to offer in-person listening services. It's good to have a 1‑800 line dedicated to suicide prevention, because there can be people at the other end of the line who have been trained. However, I don't know how someone can tell, over the phone, if someone is having suicidal thoughts. I know I can't. The same goes for online chats.

Prevention starts with providing access to a human face. Meetings should be held with teams of veterans, for example. In a phone conversation, the person will always say that everything is fine, because they don't want to start telling their story over the phone.

Meeting in person takes more effort and energy, but, as I said earlier, it saves lives. More than processes, humans will always save lives.

[Tatiana Auguste, Liberal, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Plourde.

Ms. Deraiche and Mr. Plourde, if you had one priority recommendation to make to the committee as part of this study, what would it be?

[Chloé Deraiche]

It would be for institutions and community organizations to talk to each other. A mechanism should be put in place to ensure that they work together. Everyone has one piece of the puzzle right now, but all those pieces have to be put together. It would be to give us the means to work together, then.

There should be a mandatory and systematic follow-up process after military service. Problems often arise after military service. At the time of release, things may not be well established. After that, problems emerge in everyday life. However, the link to military service isn't always apparent right away. In that context, it would be really important to have long-lasting follow-up.