House of Commons Hansard #46 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was jobs.

Topics

10 a.m.

The Speaker

Colleagues, would you please join with me in welcoming home the oldest sitting member of our House of Commons. Herb, we have missed you. Welcome home to your House of Commons.

10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

Point Of Order

10 a.m.

The Speaker

Colleagues, on May 1st, 1996, the hon. member for Richelieu raised a point of order to argue that, contrary to my statement that remarks made outside the House are not necessarily within the purview of the House, the hon. member for Rosemont had been obliged in 1993 to withdraw remarks he had made outside the House. I explained that, as I recalled the 1993 case, it differed because the remarks made in that instance concerned the House directly. Nonetheless, I promised to review the matter and come back to the House, if necessary.

I am now prepared to respond to this point of order. Let me point out that the 1993 case is not analogous because the remarks in question were a direct attack on the Chair. What was at issue is that a member was reported in a newspaper article and had criticized the conduct of the Assistant Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole.

Remarks critical of the speakership, be they uttered inside the House or outside the Chamber, particularly when uttered by a member of the House, are very serious and in themselves have been ruled to be breaches of privilege as per Beauchesne's sixth edition, citation 168(1):

Reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege. The actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a substantive motion.

When this matter was raised in the House in 1993, the hon. member for Rosemont was given the opportunity to respond and explain his comments. Speaker Fraser, having listened to this explanation and to remarks from all sides of the House, stated, in part, on page 17404 of the Debates :

If we consider the words that were reported, we clearly have a prima facie case that affects the dignity of this House and our colleague, because our colleague is an officer of this House- like the Speaker, he is an officer of this House and an attack against the integrity of a person in that position is an attack against this House.

The Speaker ruled the matter to be a prima facie question of privilege. A motion was moved to refer the matter to the then Standing Committee on House Management for examination, and the motion was adopted. Two days later, the member for Rosemont rose in the House and withdrew his comments. From there, the matter was considered closed.

There is no question that both sets of remarks, the remarks by the hon. member for Rosemont in 1993 and the remarks by the hon member for Nanaimo-Cowichan, two weeks ago, were made outside the House. The distinction to be made between the two, however, is not where the remarks were made, but rather that the remarks in one case were critical of the Chair and in the other case were not directed to the House or any of its members.

I thank the hon. member for Richelieu for bringing this matter to the attention of the House.

Government Response To Petitions
Routine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Fundy Royal
New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to two petitions.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Routine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Windsor West
Ontario

Liberal

Herb Gray Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 1995 public report and program outlook of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

National Security
Routine Proceedings

10:10 a.m.

Windsor West
Ontario

Liberal

Herb Gray Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, before I give the annual statement on national security, I would like to express my sincere thanks to colleagues on all sides of the House for their expressions of support, encouragement and good wishes. I appreciate them very much, as I appreciate similar expressions from Canadians in every part of the country.

I am especially touched by expressions of support and encouragement from people I likely have never met who have faced situations similar to the one I am facing and have surmounted them. Once again, my deep thanks to all these expressions of encouragement and support. I am deeply touched by them and I appreciate them very much.

I am pleased to rise today to present to Parliament the fifth annual statement on national security and to table in the House the 1995 public report and program outlook of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. This document provides both parliamentarians and the public with a review of the current global and domestic security environment.

Additionally, the program outlook provides information on CSIS resource levels for the current year and for the two next fiscal years. We are providing this information in keeping with the government's commitment to more openness and accountability.

It is the view of the government that a well focused and effective security intelligence capability is vital in today's world. Let me review the efforts of CSIS to protect Canada's interest and, most important, to protect Canadians from threats to their safety and security.

Today's security threats are multi-faceted. I say this because they are global in their reach and effect, they come from a variety of sources, not just a few states as during the cold war era, and they are targeted against a wider range of institutions.

For example, today economic espionage is a real concern. So is the proliferation of nuclear, biological and chemical weaponry. Ethnic conflict and the collapse of states threaten international security and have numerous implications for a country such as Canada which is noted for its refugee efforts and peacekeeping contributions.

Transnational crime was identified by leaders at the last G-7 summit as a growing threat to the security of nations. I think the House is well aware that terrorism remains the primary concern of security agencies around the world. We know the terrorist threat is increasingly sophisticated and global in nature, with some organizations having transnational structures while some continue to be state sponsored.

We must also face the reality of domestic extremism which has been manifested so tragically in the United States in the bombing of a United States federal building in Oklahoma City last year and in Japan with the poison gas attacks on Tokyo subways.

In another act of domestic terrorism we were horrified late last year by the assassination of the former prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin, an act which has threatened the very delicate efforts which we hope will bring about peace in the Middle East and which contributed to the latest resurgence of violent outbreaks between Israel and Hamas in Lebanon.

In another corner of the world we see the resumption of IRA bombings of civilian targets in Britain. The assassination of Prime Minister Rabin and the resumption of IRA bombings are examples of how promising political solutions to longstanding grievances can be jeopardized when terrorists strike.

I want to confirm that Canada has been a keen and active participant in international co-operative efforts to combat terrorism. In June of last year the Prime Minister chaired the G-7 summit in Halifax which placed international terrorism high on the agenda of discussion by world leaders.

The heads of government agreed to share their experiences of and lessons learned from major terrorist incidents. As well, they agreed to strengthen their co-operation in all efforts against terrorism.

Following up on this commitment, last December in Ottawa I chaired the very first ministerial level meeting of the G-7 countries, together with Russia, to discuss specific co-operative measures to prevent and investigate terrorist acts. The result of that meeting was a document known as the Ottawa declaration. It is a milestone in international co-operation and in the strengthening of our common resolve to defeat terrorism. I would like to briefly review the agreements contained in the Ottawa declaration.

First, we all know of the existence of a number of international conventions that spell out concrete actions against terrorist acts such as hijacking and hostage taking. We resolved that greater efforts needed to be made to get all states to join in and implement these conventions by the year 2000. We agreed that this is the key to circumscribing the ambit of international terrorism and denying it sanctuary.

In this spirit, the ministers were unanimous in denouncing states that support terrorists. The declaration called on all states to renounce terrorism and deny financial support as well as the use of territory to terrorist organizations. Ministers also committed to action to inhibit the movement of terrorists and to develop measures to prevent falsification of travel documents.

The Ottawa declaration was unequivocal on the need to bring perpetrators of terrorist acts to swift justice. We also agreed to increase our preventative efforts against terrorism in our aviation, maritime and other transport systems.

One of the most important tools we have to counter terrorism is the sharing of information. We agreed, through the Ottawa declaration, to strengthen the sharing of intelligence in information on terrorism in a large number of specific technical areas.

We were encouraged by the progress made in Canadian and multilateral efforts to combat terrorism, and we are proud of the significant accomplishment embodied in the Ottawa Declaration.

As the Prime Minister stated to the participants of the March Summit of Peacemakers in Egypt, Canada is doing its part to fight terrorism and we are doing so in a way that is consistent with international standards of human rights and laws.

He noted that Canada is pursuing the objectives of the Ottawa Declaration in every available international forum.

Further progress was made on this front just last month, when Canada joined with twenty-one western hemisphere countries in signing the Lima Declaration, at an anti-terrorism conference of the Organization of American States.

Here at home we continue to monitor threats to security and their implications for Canada. We are concerned, for example, with the potential for foreign conflicts to spill over to Canada and threaten Canadians. Canada, by its very peaceful and democratic nature, can be attractive to terrorist organizations seeking sanctuary or funds to continue terrorism in other lands. CSIS identifies and investigates such groups. It acts as the linchpin in assuring effective consultation and information sharing with appropriate Canadian law enforcement agencies, including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other police services as well as with its foreign counterparts.

The primary role of CSIS is to forewarn and advise. CSIS threat assessments provide timely information to the government concerning potential or imminent threats. As well, CSIS helps keep terrorists and other dangerous individuals from entering Canada through its assistance to Citizenship and Immigration Canada in screening individuals wishing to enter our country.

I mentioned that CSIS, while not itself a law enforcement agency, works in co-operation with the police, in particular with the RCMP. I should point out that the RCMP has an important role to play because of its extensive role in security enforcement under the Security Offences Act and in providing security to designated persons, federal property, as well as foreign embassies and missions here in Canada.

Violence in the pursuit of political objectives has no place in Canadian society. While CSIS and the police have separate mandates, they are joined by a common mission which is to protect the interests of all Canadians. Co-operation and co-ordination between police and security authorities has proven successful in defining threats and getting the best possible intelligence on criminal activities of terrorists.

Although since the end of the cold war espionage has changed its focus and its character, its intensity remains a concern to Canada and its allies. CSIS remains vigilant and active in discerning and investigating such threats to the security of Canada.

Canada plays a prominent role in the world community. We all know well that in various areas of the world, the world community is fraught with strife and unrest. In this volatile environment persistent threats must be dealt with and new ones emerge almost daily.

I want to conclude by reiterating that this government continues to put a premium on the need for reliable and timely security intelligence and security enforcement in order to protect the interests of all Canadians and of Canada.

National Security
Routine Proceedings

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

François Langlois Bellechasse, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to say how pleased I am to see that the Solicitor General is back. We were all very concerned about his condition during his absence, and we are pleased to see him back in his seat today, because he was sorely missed. This makes us realize how fragile a gift health is. As the hon. member for Laval Centre would probably say, we must be ever mindful of our health.

I am somewhat torn between the pleasure of welcoming the Solicitor General back and the comments I have a duty to make, as a member of the official opposition, about the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. Having participated in 11 elections, the Solicitor General will no doubt understand that, as much as I may admire his work, I must also do mine, hence the following criticism.

Of course I agree with the statements of principle the Solicitor General made with regard to the role of the Canadian Security

Intelligence Service. I am also happy to see that the hon. member for Fundy-Royal agrees with my previous remarks. I hope that we can continue to see eye to eye.

The trouble does not lie so much with what the Solicitor General said. We can of course readily share his views about Canada's best interests and threats to national security. On the subject of espionage, industrial espionage and new spying techniques, he expressed some interesting thoughts because, as he said, these problems have to be tackled.

He talked about the worldwide nuclear threat arising from the break-up of countries possessing deterrent and even nuclear attack capabilities; that too is something that concerns us. The same goes for international terrorism using chemical weapons. The incidents in Oklahoma City or Tokyo and the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin in Israel were mentioned.

But not a word was said about the role played by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service at home, in Canada, and that is our main concern. Our main concern stems from the realization that, for all intents and purposes, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service is out of control. It has literally become a state within the state.

Who knows about CSIS operations? Perhaps a handful of officials at the Department of the Solicitor General, sometimes the Solicitor General himself. But it has become obvious since the beginning of the 35th Parliament, since I personally became involved in the work of the national security sub-committee, that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service does not have any watchdog, inasmuch as the legislation provides for one, in the form of a review committee, which reviews whatever it is given to review.

The Security Intelligence Review Committee, or SIRC-CSARS in French-is an organization that has demonstrated its utter inefficiency in carrying out the duties entrusted to it by Parliament. If the Solicitor General has privileged information from SIRC, he should pass it on to us.

Since the end of 1994, almost two years ago, we have been working on the Heritage Front affair. This problem did not occur in Israel, Belarus or the Middle East, but here in this country. There are allegations that an extremist group may have committed illegal acts here in this country.

For two years we have been bogged down in our efforts to enlist the co-operation of members of the famous SIRC or Security Intelligence Review Committee, who have appeared before us parliamentarians in the Sub-committee on National Security but who have been hiding behind their so-called immunity to refuse to answer the legitimate questions asked by members. This ordeal has lasted for nearly two years. They laughed at us and refused to answer our questions, so that we have not made much progress so far. We, of course, had to make deductions rather than rely on honest, clear and precise answers to our questions.

There is a problem in a democratic society when a review committee, an external committee like SIRC, sees parliamentarians as the enemy. Rather, those people should see us as those who are responsible for public administration and for monitoring them, and should give us all the information they have without arguing. Unfortunately, such was not the case.

It is with sadness that once again this year I must point out that the membership of SIRC has not been reviewed. We as the official opposition, and the hon. member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley on behalf of the Reform Party, had asked that SIRC be a reflection of the 35th Parliament. Who are the members of SIRC, the Security Intelligence Review Committee? Only people who represent or were appointed on the recommendation of the Liberal Party of Canada or of other parties that are not even recognized any more in this House, namely the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party. Since the beginning of the 35th Parliament, no one has been appointed on the recommendation of the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the third party. This is not normal.

How can we trust an organization that deals in this fashion with national security issues that may have a direct impact on democracy in Canada? The level of confidence is extremely low, and perhaps even non existent. Psychologists refer to "basic trust". The basic trust is no longer there. The basic trust required for an organization to function properly is gone; it has been gone for a long time.

It is imperative to amend the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act so as to change, among others, the Security Intelligence Review Committee and decide on its membership at the beginning of each Parliament, based on the will expressed by Canadians through their ballots. It is not normal to see an organization such as this one represent political parties that were in place previously, instead of reflecting the current situation.

Once again, I urge the minister to consider this request to review the act. We will, of course, support the measures we have been seeking for a long time. I will continue to raise this issue.

I also want to point out the lack of co-operation between the government and the parliamentary sub-committee on national security. Throughout 1995, and for a good part of 1996, we benefited from the contribution of the hon. member for Scarborough West, who was a full-fledged member of this committee. His help allowed us to make major progress on the Heritage Front

issue, concerning which we should normally table a report. In fact, we are meeting this morning at eleven.

I urge government authorities, and particularly the Solicitor General, to reinstate the member for Scarborough West as a full-fledged member of the national security sub-committee, so that we can arrive at a decision. The member was a regular at the committee, as well as a leader in the search for truth that we were obliged to conduct by inference, since we had little information to go on.

I also ask the government to follow up on the unanimous wish of this House, as expressed by the adoption of Motion M-38, on March, 21, 1995, more than a year ago. The motion, tabled by the hon. member for Scarborough-Rouge River, asked that the operations of the Communications Security Establishment, the CSE, be reviewed by an independent body. The CSE was set up during World War II, by order in council and, today, its operations are not monitored by anyone, except the Prime Minister's office and, from time to time, the office of the Minister of National Defence. The time has come to act, since the House sent a message to that effect.

As I said earlier, we should amend the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, to make the Sub-committee on National Security a standing committee. The same members could sit on this standing committee and meet throughout the duration of a Parliament. They could have a much broader power of inquiry than they have now, including the powers to call witnesses, to order the production of documents and to carry out in-depth cross interrogations, thongs we cannot do right now. Were are a bit like a paper tiger and have become a laughing stock.

Moreover, all reports submitted to the Solicitor General pursuant to section 54 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act should also be forwarded to the Sub-committee on National Security for examination, in camera of course. Granting us this power would go a long way in enhancing the role we have to play as parliamentarians. Such a committee would provide a very efficient service and help all Canadians to regain confidence in the parliamentarians they have elected to run the country.

We have one last request for the Solicitor General. We would like the government, through the Treasury Board, to act as soon as possible in order to grant, as requested by the current director of CSIS the money needed to pay the bilingual bonus to RCMP officers transferred to the service when it was first established in 1984, as well as to other employees of the service. In a letter he sent us last Friday, the Solicitor General said that in order to pay these bilingual bonuses cuts within the service would be needed.

The thing is, we should not have to cut the services CSIS needs, rather we must inject the money needed, as was done in the rest of the public service, in order to pay a bilingual bonus to the employees who deserve it and are entitled to it.

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and your patience and for giving me 20 additional seconds to conclude.

National Security
Routine Proceedings

10:35 a.m.

Reform

Val Meredith Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Reform Party I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Solicitor General of Canada back to the House. Our prayers have been and continue to be with him.

I am sure the minister knows better than the rest of us that the demands of government and the House do not wait for any one individual.

Today we have the annual national security address. As is tradition, the minister has reminded us of some recent terrorist activity: last year's bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, poison gas attacks on the Tokyo subways, the recent assassination of the Prime Minister of Israel and the resumption of IRA bombings in London. Terrorism remains a worldwide problem.

In addition, the media is usually full of tragedies arising from conflicts around the world. Many of these conflicts from faraway lands have implications here in Canada. Be it the Middle East, Bosnia, Somalia, Sri Lanka or Punjab, conflicts in these diverse locations impact on the emigre communities in Canada. While the overwhelming majority of immigrants or refugees from these areas are intent on starting new lives in Canada, a small majority involve themselves in activities supporting terrorist groups.

As the minister stated in his address, Canada has joined the other G-7 nations to deal with terrorism. A document known as the Ottawa declaration calls on all states to renounce terrorism and deny financial support, including the use of territory, to terrorist organizations. While the government has congratulated itself on its efforts in this regard, its actual commitment has been somewhat underwhelming.

The minister boasts of the government's efforts to fight terrorism and to pursue the objectives of the Ottawa declaration. However, I would like to draw the attention of the House back to last year around this time.

On May 4, 1995 I asked the Minister of National Revenue about the Sikh militant group, the Babbar Khalsa, having charitable tax status. The minister's response was: "I would be grateful if the hon. member would provide that information so that investigations can be carried out rather than simply making allegations of the type she has made today".

I attempted to follow up this issue on June 5, 1995. On that date I provided the Minister of National Revenue with photographs of the founder of the Babbar Khalsa, surrounded by weapons, and a

statement in which Talwinder Singh Parmar declared that if anyone wanted to commit suicide he should board an Air India plane.

The minister's response was a lame attempt at humour, stating that he felt it was contradictory for the Reform Party to be against terrorism at the same time that it was opposed to Bill C-68. That was the government's response to fundraising for terrorist groups a year ago.

Fortunately things have changed. The Prime Minister went to a conference in Cairo and suddenly the government is concerned about fundraising for terrorist groups. As well, we have a new Minister of National Revenue. There are grand pronouncements about the tough action the government will take to stop the support of terrorism in Canada.

Finally, on April 13, 1996 the government buried a small little notice in the Canada Gazette. The item was that Revenue Canada has withdrawn the charitable status of the Babbar Khalsa. A year ago the government thought it was a joke. Now it realizes that the Reform Party's concerns were valid right from the beginning.

I am sure the minister is aware that there are a number of other groups involved in this kind of activity. Last week we heard that the RCMP had arrested one of its former translators on charges of attempting to obstruct justice and perjury. According to a police affidavit this individual was hired by the RCMP to translate wiretaps in a major investigation into a Tamil-speaking Sri Lankan forgery and alien smuggling group.

Unfortunately for the RCMP, neither the translator nor the Mounties initial background check mentioned anything about his membership in the terrorist group, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, also known as the Tamil Tigers.

The police stated: "It is our belief that he tried to infiltrate the RCMP while a member of a terrorist organization". The Mounties are concerned that the translator may have been working on sensitive documents relating to his homeland and they are now going through a damage control exercise.

Who would have thought that a translator in one of the solicitor general's agencies was actually working against the interest of his employer? It is important for the government to live up to its commitment to stop individuals living in Canada from supporting terrorists overseas.

The government cannot just talk about taking a stand against these activities, it must act and it must be seen to be acting. Burying announcements in the Canada Gazette is not sufficient. Let those involved know that their activities are unacceptable, make them illegal and prosecute them.

The minister says in his statement that he cannot canvas all the activities of CSIS and the RCMP in support of national security and I do not imagine that he would have.

In the May 12 edition of the Vancouver Province we learn that CSIS officers in British Columbia have been questioning Tamil leaders to determine if they are raising money to support guerrilla warfare in Sri Lanka. The response of the president of the Eelam Tamil Community Association of B.C. was that while he owes his allegiance to the Tamil Tigers, his group raises money only for humanitarian uses.

A number of terrorist organizations do have a faction that is involved in humanitarian endeavours, but how much money goes to humanitarian efforts and how much money goes to terrorist activities is impossible to measure.

If the government is serious about the Ottawa declaration, and if it is serious about the summit of peacemakers that took place in Cairo in March, it must make clear to everyone that support for terrorism will not be tolerated no matter what disguise it tries to take. Any organization that targets innocent civilians is a terrorist group and must be dealt with as such. The government may have to offend some individuals and groups to make that message loud and clear.

Petitions
Routine Proceedings

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Lévis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a petition that was sent to me by the workers of MIL Davie. It reads as follows: "Since 1990, the federal government has not contributed a single penny to the unemployment insurance program, which is funded entirely by workers and employers. Following legislative amendments made in 1990, 1993 and 1994, benefits paid have decreased, which has resulted in a large surplus in the UI fund. That surplus will reach an estimated $7 billion by the end of 1996. Ottawa wants to reduce benefits paid by a further $2 billion a year and use the UI fund surplus for its own purposes. We say no to drastic cuts in the unemployment insurance program and ask the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to withdraw this bill".

Questions On The Order Paper
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Fundy Royal
New Brunswick

Liberal

Paul Zed Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order Paper
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that four questions to the Minister of Human Resources Development and one to the Minister of Public Works have been standing in my name on the Order Paper since March 11, 1996.

The government was supposed to answer these questions within 45 days, and that period expired a good 15 days ago. In the public interest, I would like to know when the government will answer these four questions, which will shed new light on a rather controversial issue, namely the transfer of the human resources development department regional management centre from Trois-Rivières to Shawinigan, an issue where the public interest has not been taken into account.

Questions On The Order Paper
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

François Langlois Bellechasse, QC

Mr. Speaker, I simply wanted to mention that the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader asked that all Order Paper questions be allowed to stand and the official opposition gave its consent. We want you to know there is unanimous consent in this regard.

Questions On The Order Paper
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

I take the point of order raised by hon. member for Trois-Rivières under advisement. I thank the hon. member for having brought to the attention of the House and, in particular, of the government, the issue he raised quite a while ago already.

According to the practice in this House, the government should answer your question, as I hope it will, but feel free to call on the Chair if you think it necessary. Unfortunately, since nobody seems to be able to respond to this point of order for the time being, I will take the issue raised by the hon. member for Trois-Rivières under advisement.

Shall all questions stand?

Questions On The Order Paper
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Petitions
Routine Proceedings

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Alex Shepherd Durham, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions signed by people in my riding.

The first petition contains 225 names. It refers to the Canadian Human Rights Act, which of course has already been amended. However, I will refer to the second part which has to do with the charter of rights and freedoms.

The petitioners pray that we do not grant societal approval of same sex relationships and homosexuality, including amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the charter of rights and freedoms to include in the prohibited grounds of discrimination the undefined phrase of sexual orientation.

The second petition is basically on the same matter. The petitioners pray that we do not amend the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to include or otherwise define the undefined phrase of sexual orientation.