Debates of June 3rd, 1999

Supply

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise again and suggest that the Speaker ask for unanimous consent of the House, and we might get it, that we see the clock as 5.30 and continue with private members' hour.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food has requested the unanimous consent of the House to see the time as 5.30 p.m. Is it the unanimous consent of the House to see the clock as 5.30 p.m.?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's Order Paper.

Canada Elections Act

[Raymond Lavigne, Liberal, Verdun—Saint-Henri, QC]

moved that Bill C-405, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act (ballot papers), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I thank House and committee members for allowing debate of Bill C-405, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act (ballot papers).

I introduced this bill in May 1998 in order to do something about people with bad intentions. As many of us know, some malicious individuals run candidates with similar or identical names. For instance, in 1988, in the riding of Verdun—Saint-Paul where I was a candidate, one of the candidates on the ballot papers was named Lavergne. He was a representative of the Green Party and got a lot of votes.

In 1993, the same party had a candidate whose name bore no resemblance to any of the other candidates. The party received very few votes.

In 1997, in the riding of Outremont, the name of one of the candidates was similar to that of the member who was representing the riding in the House at the time. Fortunately, people trusted this member and re-elected him without too much trouble.

Today, in the Ontario provincial election, there are two candidates with similar names in the riding of Casselman. One is named Jean-Marc Lalonde and the other Alain Lalonde. With situations like this, one might well think that there are people who want to reduce a candidate's majority, or eliminate him altogether.

I believe it is unfair to someone who has worked like mad to run for a political party to see certain people doing such things. That is why I have introduced a private member's bill to counteract the actions of malicious people, who may be found in all of the ridings across Canada.

I will go still further and state that the photographs of candidates ought to be on every ballot, and I will tell you why. After I introduced my bill last May, I received a letter from an organization that works with literacy, Carrefour d'éducation pour l'alphabétisation, asking me to add a clause to the effect that all candidates should have their photograph on the ballots.

I will explain why. As hon. members are aware, illiterate people have trouble voting. I remember back to 1980 when I helped a lady to do so, on behalf of an organization for the mentally handicapped. The organization was made up of about 18 mentally handicapped persons. Over 19 years, we managed to get 150 mentally retarded people out of the back rooms in which their families had hidden them out of shame.

If hon. members could only realize how much help the simple addition of a photo would be to the illiterate, who do not get out and vote because they are embarrassed at not being able to read.

When I was campaigning door to door in 1997, people would tell me “Mr. Lavigne, I will not be voting. It is not that I do not want to vote for you. I would like to, and I could vote for you if there was a photo of you. But I cannot read, and I do not know where to go”. I told them they just had to pick the third name down and they said “Yes, but what if I make a mistake and I pick the fourth one?” If there were photos, all these people would have the same right to vote as everyone else.

There are many services for the disabled in Quebec and in Canada. A few months ago, with funding from the Government of Canada, I formed an association with young lawyers to make the disabled aware of their rights. We even opened an office in Canada, to provide information to the disabled about their rights. Like us, those who are illiterate are entitled to vote. The Government of Canada must give them an opportunity to do so.

The purpose of my bill, of course, is to counter malicious intents and acts to reduce a candidate's margin or eliminate him altogether, but I think we should take it a step further and let everyone benefit.

[Norman E. Doyle, Progressive Conservative, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to say a few words on this bill on behalf of my party. I am sure the sponsor of the bill is well meaning but we have to ask ourselves if this is the way we want to go in Canada.

The use of colourful symbols to identify the various political parties on the ballot is quite common in many third world countries. There are probably countries where the photo of a candidate is next to his or her name on the ballot paper. In countries where there is a high degree of illiteracy it would make sense. It also makes sense in countries where there are a multitude of local or tribal languages where even a literate person could become confused.

Canada is not a third world country. We have a high literacy rate and we only have two official languages. Therefore we do not see the need for this amendment to the Canada Elections Act.

As well, I say to the hon. member that the wording of the proposed amendment leaves a lot to subjective interpretation. Who decides which names are similar enough to be confusing on the ballot paper? Will there be a similarity test? He did not indicate that. If they fail a similarity test, do not get their picture on the ballot and lose the election by a small margin, is that a valid reason to have the election declared null and void? What would happen if they had a twin with each individual running for a different party? Surely the picture would only add to the confusion.

The other valid factor is sociological. Many studies have shown that good looking people who are photogenic tend to be regarded more positively by others than people who are not so good looking. What if they are a bright, articulate, spirited, public minded individual but very plain to look at, not really good looking like the hon. member happens to be? What would happen in that case? Publishing their picture in that case could be detrimental to their electoral chances.

Another factor which has to be taken into consideration is incumbency. An incumbent already enjoys a big advantage in an election campaign. We are all very much aware of that. An incumbent generally has a 20% to 25% advantage going into an election campaign. Putting the incumbent's picture on the ballot would only add to the incumbent's advantage. I do not know if the hon. member would agree with that line of thought. If one happens to be a rather plain looking challenger then the picture would only add to the individual's disadvantage. It would only add to his chances of not getting elected. At some point in this debate I would like the hon. member to address some of the little problems I have given him to think about.

Simply put, I do not see any pressing need for this change. I feel we could be opening a Pandora's box of potential new problems if we approve the bill. Under the current circumstances as presented by the hon. member we would not have any choice but to vote against his bill. During the course of this debate the hon. member may be answering some of the concerns I have made known to him today, and hopefully we will see.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-405 respecting amendments to the Canada Elections Act. I must admit there is great uncertainty with the bill. The summary states that the photograph of each candidate shall be printed on the ballot next to the name of that candidate. That would suggest that each and every one of us would have to send our pictures in and that the ballot would have the pictures of all candidates.

However, clause 2 of the bill indicates that only where there is similarity in the names of any two candidates would their pictures be on the ballot. If we are unclear as to what the bill says, imagine somebody trying to figure out at Elections Canada whether or not all our pictures are required.

I too have problems with the suggestion that Canadian voters are not smart enough to be able to identify the candidate of their choice. As we all know, on today's election ballots the party name is attached to the name. If there is a similarity in names or if one person has the same name as somebody else, there is an indication of what political party they represent. That differentiates one candidate from another.

We are asking for people to take advantage of that situation. In past elections we have had two John Turners running for a seat in the same constituency. It was done for a reason. I believe he represented the Rhino Party, which tends to take lightly the election process. I am a little concerned that the pictures that might be received to be put on ballots may not in all circumstances be pictures of a person's face. What constitutes a picture of the candidate? We are really asking for somebody to take advantage of the situation and to turn it into a joke more than a very serious process.

I do not see the reason for it. I fail to see where the pictures are going to differentiate the individuals any more than the party name differentiates them.

Another issue should be considered. Whether we like it or not, if only two individuals have pictures on a ballot of from six to thirteen people and the others do not have pictures, it draws more attention to those two individuals. Our election process has to be fair and equal to all candidates and not give one any more of an advantage over another. In some cases where two people may have their pictures on the ballot, that would automatically draw the attention of the voter to those two individuals and may exclude the others from consideration. I do not think we want to go down that path. I think it is a dangerous path to go on.

It is a question of when there is not a real problem why we need to change the process. Elections Canada works very hard in making sure that the ballots are clear and the names are listed alphabetically. That again can cause problems if people want to take advantage of it. I know someone who put a name on the ballot that basically said “none of the above and put a couple of z 's in front of it.” We have to be careful that we do not encourage that kind of attitude in making the election process a joke.

In the case of ballots there are already methods that Election Canada uses to clarify such as, as I mentioned, alphabetical order, names with clarify, using initials and using the party's affiliation. If that in itself is not clear, a person can put his or her occupation on the ballot as well.

There is plenty of opportunity to make sure there is clarity in terms of who are the candidates. Putting picture on the ballot would not help and may make the process unfair. I will be voting against this private member's bill and encouraging my colleagues to do the same.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I wish to begin by congratulating the hon. member for Verdun—Saint-Henri on his initiative.

I believe he is totally justified in his concern to see our fellow citizens participate fully in selecting those who will govern them. I can therefore understand that he would want to ensure that all those who vote are fully informed.

We believe, however, that there is a problem here. As it stands, we believe the bill confers an unfair advantage on certain categories of candidate.

As the hon. member pointed out in his opening remarks, if all candidates had a photo I believe that the hon. member would receive considerable support, if not unanimity. He would without a doubt have the support of the Bloc Quebecois, because in the ridings we represent we know there are people who cannot read and write, for all manner of reasons related to their particular circumstances, and we must respect that.

Let us take advantage of this excellent initiative by our colleague to pay tribute to our fellow citizens who are involved in this process of learning to read and write. They deserve all our support, for this is not an easy undertaking, we know.

I would encourage the hon. member to consider introducing an amendment, whereby all candidates could have their photo on the ballot. This would, I believe, be of service to democracy and all members of parliament would be grateful to him for this.

It is very important to make sure that our fellow citizens take part in the democratic process. There are a number of countries on this planet where, unfortunately, the right to elect those who govern them is not recognized.

A lot of people in the world would like to be in our shoes in order to be able to regularly, periodically, every four or five years, focus their attention on public life, on public issues and be part of the very important moment of choosing representatives in this democratic institution here of the House of Commons. Obviously, this is a principle we would be able to apply to many institutions.

I believe the member is raising an important point. It is all to his credit, and I thank him for it. I want to remind the House that we are proud, because in Quebec—like me, he is a member from Quebec, and so is his seatmate—we have an extremely deep-rooted democratic tradition. You know that the National Assembly was the first parliament in North America.

Regardless of whether we voted yes or no in the last referendum, we must all rejoice in the fact that over 90% of our fellow citizens exercised their right to vote.

Those in elected office, like the member for Verdun—Saint-Henri, myself and any parliamentarian, would all do well to ensure that people turn out to vote in numbers. There is no doubt that what the member is proposing, that is including the photo with the name of the candidate on the ballot, is an enlightened measure that provides people with the best information possible on the people who are running in an election.

I therefore invite him to consider expanding the scope of the bill. I am sure that I am speaking for my colleagues of the Bloc Quebecois when I say that we will be happy to support such an initiative.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I did not plan on speaking to the bill today but there is one thing I would like to point out which I have not heard today in the comments of other members.

I too have reservations with the whole idea of putting photographs on the ballot. I would disagree with the hon. member from the Bloc who just pointed out that members of his party would probably not have much problem if all the candidates had their photographs on the ballot. The point I want to raise is a good argument for having neither. Neither should all the photos be on the ballot. Nor should just two in the case of names that are very similar.

For people who do not know what their candidates look like, if they do not follow politics very much or did not really pay any attention to the leaflets and literature that might have come to their doors, there is a very real possibility they are the type of people who do not really know a lot about politics and would make their choices based on what the candidate looked like.

I think everybody here would agree that would be fundamentally wrong. There are all kinds of biases that exist: racial bias or racial prejudice or gender bias, people who do not want women in politics. My name is one that could be used for a male or female. Many people with the name Pat are from both genders.

There may be two people with the name Pat, one a man and one a woman, and the choice would be made simply because someone might not want women in politics and would vote for the male, never mind what the virtues are.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

The members opposite are chuckling. There are people who certainly feel that way. They are biased toward having women in politics. They might vote that way. I am just saying it is a possibility and it is one of the reservations that should be raised here.

There are other things such as ethnic background. People who are racially prejudiced would notice right off the bat, never mind the merits and qualities of the person. One person might be wearing a turban, for instance, and one not. They might have similar names and the voter might be biased against a certain type of person.

What about people with obvious physical disabilities? Somebody like Stephen Hawking would not have much of a chance if he was going strictly on physical appearance if the voter did not think handicapped people could conduct themselves as well as somebody else. We all know that having somebody like Stephen Hawking would be a great asset to any political environment.

There are ways to tamper photographs to one's advantage. People have done all kinds of research on reactions to people who are physically beautiful. If one looks like a 30 year old Olympic athlete and has the same name as a person who is paunchy, middle aged and more my vintage, the 30 year old Olympic athlete would have a clear advantage over me personally. I would find that troublesome because I might think I would be the better candidate.

For those reasons I would oppose this idea, even though I understand that it was put forward with all the best of intentions to make it a better system. Our party could not vote for the bill as it currently stands because of the possibility of biases based on physical appearance.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to support the bill introduced by the hon. member for Verdun—Saint-Henri.

This bill addresses a real problem in Canadian society. It is known that our rate of illiteracy is extremely high and unacceptable for an industrialized country, a country that boasts of having one of the highest standards of living in the world. And yet, we have a real problem. There are people in Canada who do not know how to read or have difficulty doing so.

I want to assure the member for St. John's East, who is not in the House at this moment, but who spoke to this bill—

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I must remind the hon. member that we do not comment on the presence or absence of members in the House.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Madam Speaker, I did not mean to cast any aspersions. The member for St. John's East, when he spoke about photos being placed on ballots, said that this could in fact put someone who is plain looking into difficulty. I want to assure him that he is a very good looking person. That is the first thing.

I want to assure the member from the NDP that he as well is a very good looking person. In fact, I think that everyone sitting in the House today, and not sitting in the House today, but who has the right to sit in the House, is very good looking. The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve is also good looking.

However, the point was raised by the NDP member that this could lead to discrimination on the basis of race, gender, or whether people like the way an individual looks. He is right. There may be some people who will decide on the basis of a photo not to vote for a candidate because the candidate is a woman, a senior, too young, black, a visible minority or an aboriginal.

Luckily, we have a system in which we have signage and billboards. I can assure the member that it would have been incredible if, of the 59% of the electorate which voted for me, one person in my riding voted not knowing that I was a black Canadian woman of African origin. It would have been very difficult. I had billboards all over my riding. The person would have had to have suffered from a visual disability and not have had any friends or family with whom they communicated over the length of the campaign not to know that I was, one, a woman, and two, a black woman, a visible minority.

I would also hope that in Canada we have advanced sufficiently, regardless of the level of our education, that the overwhelming majority of Canadians would vote for the best candidate, for the candidate that represents that party which embodies their values. I think that is in fact what we have. We have an increasing diversity within the House of Commons.

We have a higher number of women representatives in the 36th Parliament than we have had in the past 130-odd years of our confederation.

We have a higher level of representation in terms of age groups representing the different ages. We have younger MPs, middle MPs and our more senior and more mature MPs. I consider myself to be in the middle in terms of maturity and age.

We have greater representation in terms of the members of parliament who are of varying and diverse ethnocultural origins. Only 20 years ago it would have been very difficult to find a member of parliament in this House whose name was not Tremblay or James or Brown. I perhaps should not have used the name “Brown”. Let me try McKinney or Smith.

This House is the actual proof of the openness of our Canadian society, of the ability of Canadian electors to look beyond a person's physical appearance to that person's experience, values and the policies of that person and the party which that person represents.

In my own riding, there is considerable socioeconomic diversity. The percentage of residents living on welfare is rather disturbing. A number of them are illiterate as well, and many of them voted for me, despite or perhaps because of the fact—I do not know which—that I am a woman, that I am middle aged and that I am a member of a visible minority. These people perhaps thought that because of my own diversity I would be able to understand what they are going through.

I think an important point is being raised here in the House, which is that the bill, as its stands, may cause some difficulty because it requires pictures on ballots only when the names of two or more candidates give rise to confusion. I believe that ballots should include the pictures of all candidates, as the member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve mentioned.

I can assure all members here in the House at the moment that the member introducing this bill—which I support—intends, if he manages to get it through second reading stage and referred to committee, to make an amendment to ensure in fact that all candidates' photos appear on the ballot.

Many associations and non-profit organizations are working on the issue of literacy in Canada and, more specifically, in Quebec. We have excellent organizations, which conclude the Regroupement des associations de l'analphabétisme, Literacy Partners in Quebec and others. I hope they will not be upset if I do not name all of them.

I consulted a number of them on this point, and I can tell you that everyone I consulted, working Monday to Friday and often on weekends with people who are illiterate, support with one voice the idea of having each candidate's photo on the ballot.

I will come back to the point raised by the hon. NDP member. Should we fear having our picture on a ballot when we do not fear having our picture on billboards, which are sometimes 10 by 11 feet or 15 by 10 feet high?

If we had lived in feudal times, when most people did not have the right to vote, we might fear having our photo displayed. But at this point, it would be more likely through ignorance that we might fear our picture being printed could bring bad luck.

I think all the parties in this House should support this bill. If, as I hope, the bill is referred to committee, you may rest assured that there will be an amendment to make sure that the photos of all candidates appear on the ballot.

I thank all members of the House for their patience and their understanding and I congratulate the hon. member for Verdun—Saint-Henri.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Madam Speaker, we were discussing the possibility of amending this bill, whose motivation seems to be totally commendable and justifiable to the extent that, as the hon. member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce pointed out, it would be of service to democracy that as much information as possible be provided on candidates running for office.

There is no doubt that the motivation for this bill is very appropriate and deserves to be supported. However, the wording of the bill seems to pose a bit of a problem, since a photograph of the candidates would only be affixed if two or more candidates had an identical name.

This obviously creates a problem for the other candidates, who would not have their photos on the ballot. In a way, this would almost be placing these other candidates in what would no longer be a level playing field, since some candidates could be identified on the ballot by their facial features but not others.

From the moment that, in an election campaign, there are posters on telephone poles or balconies showing the facial features of candidates—and we all know how important that is—to have one's picture on telephone poles or balconies, to have the photographs of just a few candidates on a ballot would be detrimental to those whose picture would not appear.

It is our view that, in its present form, Bill C-405 is totally unacceptable. There will, I imagine, be the possibility of proposing an amendment at either the committee or the report stage, or even today, why not, by unanimous consent. I will make a motion to that effect at the end of my speech. I will be seconded in this by my colleague for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, whom I would invite to return to his seat so that he may do so.

As I said earlier, the motivation for this bill is most commendable, because the more information one has on candidates, the more able one is to make an enlightened decision. This is, of course, particularly true when the names of candidates are confusing.

For example, let us take my first name. For many anglophones, Stéphane looks like a girl's name because it ends in the same way as Suzanne or Joanne. I remember within a few days of my election getting mail from all over Canada addressing me as Mrs. Stéphane Bergeron, and those who were not completely sure added a letter to my name, making me into Mrs. Stéphanie Bergeron, convinced that there had been a mistake in my first name.

For many anglophones, my name is a woman's name. For the few anglophones in my riding—and they are not very many—this can indeed represent a problem. I imagine that this could be the case for a large number of candidates running for office, who have confusing names.

This idea of having candidates' pictures on the ballot is an excellent one as well for those of our fellow citizens who are unfortunately unable to read, or whose language is written with another alphabet, and therefore are at a disadvantage compared to other voters when it comes to making a choice on election day.

There is no doubt that this is an interesting bill. But in fact, as I said, the provisions, as they appeared in the bill, are totally unacceptable in our opinion.

Consequently, I would like to propose an amendment, and I invite all my colleagues to support it. I move:

That all candidates be identified on the ballot by means of a photo of approximately 3 cm by 1.8 cm taken within the year preceding nomination day.

I must point out that this amendment, drafted carefully by my colleague from Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, which I introduce with his support, is entirely in keeping with clause 1 of the bill.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

Unfortunately, at this stage of the debate, the amendment I have before me is unacceptable in its present form.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Madam Speaker, may I ask why, in all your wisdom, you consider this amendment inadmissible in its present form, since, if there is unanimous consent, it is certainly acceptable procedurally?

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I will take the amendment under advisement and consider it carefully, and I will make a decision before the end of this hour.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Madam Speaker, I do not want to prolong the debate unduly, except to say that you have an opportunity to consider the wording of the amendment as proposed. I think it is not insulting to our colleague from Verdun—Saint-Henri to amend this bill.

From the nodding we see before us, most of our colleagues in this House do seem to agree with the idea that the photo of all candidates should appear on the ballot, and not just the photo of candidates whose names might be similar.

Accordingly, I respectfully submit to my colleague from Verdun—Saint-Henri that, through a gesture of openness, his bill, as amended by an opposition party, could rally all parties in this House.

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the Environment]

Madam Speaker, this just goes to show that there is a complexity of problems. In fact there are very many people in this chamber who have names that are not gender specific.

Like my colleague opposite, who receives many letters addressed to “Mrs. Bergeron”, I have received many letters addressed to “Mr. Torsney”. My name is not very common in Canada. My family alone bears this name, because my parents immigrated to Canada.

I am pleased to speak to Bill C-405 which has been sponsored by the member for Verdun—Saint-Henri. On a personal basis I support everything that we can do to enhance people's participation rate in the election process, to help people to overcome physical difficulties and literacy difficulties. The objective of this amendment is to improve access for persons specifically with reading deficiencies.

The issue of accessibility is a fundamental principle to all of us in our electoral system. The questions that are raised here are quite important.

The Canada Elections Act has in fact been modified on many occasions in the last number of years. Polling stations on election day, the offices of the returning officers and the advance polling stations have a mandate to be available on a level access. While Elections Canada does not have it perfect, it does have 97% of its locations with level access for electors with disabilities.

In 1993 Bill C-114 extended the use of voting by special ballots to all electors, allowing electors with physical impairments to vote by mail. Elections Canada has taken steps to assist voters who have difficulty understanding English or French. Material about the electoral process was published in as many as 24 languages in the last general election. Returning officers are encouraged to appoint multilingual elections officials to provide information in several languages, particularly in urban areas and polls where there are people of many ethnic origins.

Other measures and new technologies have been put in place for the particular needs of hospitalized people, for voters with visual and hearing impairments, mobile polls, ballots in Braille, interpreters of sign language at polling stations, a special phone line for voters with hearing impairment. Voters who have reading deficiencies are included in the voters who have special needs. We need to find a way to help them.

The addition of photographs has been proposed by the hon. member for Verdun—Saint-Henri. This issue as well as that of placing party logos on the ballot have been the subject of study over the past few years.

In 1991 the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform and Party Financing recommended that logos or initials of the political parties be printed on the ballots and that photographs of candidates be displayed in the form of a poster at polling stations. Who knows how that would have affected all of our chances.

Following the 1993 general election the Chief Electoral Officer, a fine individual, recommended in the annex to his statutory report tabled in parliament in 1996 that the logos of registered parties be printed in black on the left side of the ballot in front of the candidates' names.

In the June 1998 report on the Canada Elections Act, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs expressed a number of reservations with this recommendation. Some members doubted that using logos would increase the participation of illiterate voters. Others echoed the Chief Electoral Officer's concerns about the technical difficulties involved in getting the logos or candidates' photographs on the ballot, including whether or not the photos should be in black and white or in colour. The committee of this House did not arrive at a consensus.

Many factors must be taken into consideration in assessing the proposal before us. There is an absence of empirical studies. Whether or not the voter rate for individuals who have reading deficiencies is lower than the participation of Canadians in general we do not know. Whether or not individuals with reading deficiencies who do not vote would vote if pictures were on the ballot is not clear.

It is difficult to evaluate, as many members of the House have articulated, without further research on the influence of voter selection of candidates as a result of having the pictures. Would it have a distorting effect? Would we be here or not be here? It is unclear. It may well be an unforeseen consequence that it could affect people's voting habits whether it be based on some kind of difficulty with people of various parties.

I know some people imagine it impossible, but I had great big mall posters. I had pictures in the paper. I had lots of pictures on materials and still people told me that their relative, friend or acquaintance had voted for me specifically because I was a Liberal and because I was not a woman. Who knows? I can assure everyone who is watching that I am female.

The candidates' photographs on the ballot may address the situation of people who wish to cast their ballot for a recognizable candidate regardless of the party affiliation. However, it would not address the case of electors who intend to vote primarily for a party.

There are a number of questions that have not been answered. What would be the cost of the proposal? What would be its impact on the electoral calendar? Are there technical dimensions associated with its implementation?

Let us be clear. The printing of ballots can take place only after the closing date for nominations, day 21. The opening of advance polling stations starts 10 days after the closing of nominations, days 10, 9 and 7. Therefore all the ballots need to be produced and distributed even in remote areas of the country within a period of 10 days. It would be a serious strain on the already very short timeframe.

The production process would be further complicated by the addition of photographs, besides the fact that the ballot may need to be changed.

There would need to be established rules, as the hon. member opposite has indicated, on the quality of the impression, the format, the size and the placement of the pictures. Elections Canada would need to be provided with the responsibility to make sure that the rules are enforced, otherwise all of us could be in jeopardy for fairness.

Elections Canada has not had a chance to answer these questions. We already know that the 36 day period of the electoral campaign leaves little room for additional steps in the process.

We do not have that many parameters in Bill C-405. We need to look through these issues and we need to look at what the other options are.

In the Northwest Territories for instance currently posters are provided with photographs of candidates in all voter locations. At first glance this could be the way to solve the problems of the hon. member opposite.

No proposal should be excluded or adopted before the organizations representing the people who have reading deficiencies are consulted. They can best identify the solutions. We need to have a bottom-up solution. More analysis needs to be done.

On the issue of accessibility, all of us in the House support that. On the issue of encouraging more people of varied backgrounds to participate, hopefully all of us support that and work every day to reduce those barriers, but further analysis is needed.

I would remind all hon. members that the government House leader will be introducing legislation to amend the Canada Elections Act in the very near future. Perhaps this matter could be pursued at that time by the hon. member opposite and by all members of the House.

[Clifford Lincoln, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Madam Speaker, I rise in support of my colleague's bill. I understand the constraints and arguments put forward by members of the various opposition parties, and even by members of our party, to the effect that the photographs of all candidates should appear on the ballots, and I agree that this is a very good point.

However, when it comes to the overall issue, we must first think about people in our society who are at a disadvantage for one reason or another. It is nice to say “We all support access”. But when we then go on to say “There are many constraints”. I realize this is not an easy thing to put in place. But at the same time, this is precisely why we have House committees. If, as it is my hope, this bill makes it through second reading, it will be referred to a committee, and that committee may want to send for Elections Canada officials to discuss the details.

For example, I see no reason why the official photographs appearing on the posters of candidates could not be used on the ballots. It would only make sense.

At present, Elections Canada spends $8.6 million on pamphlets distributed to organizations for illiterate people. We do not know whether all illiterate people are reached through these organizations. I met some of them myself, and there is often an issue of individual pride involved.

The pride of the person. How many people want to belong to these organizations in the first place? And when they do, how do the organizations reach them when they themselves, these people, cannot read?

Even if pamphlets are sent to these organizations by Elections Canada, even if there are all kinds of systems used by Elections Canada to try to reach illiterate people, certainly a number of people are not reached. Witnesses have come to me personally at meetings.

At one meeting attended by my colleague from Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine and myself, one lady told us how she was afraid of taking the bus. She had avoided every public place until she was 35 or 40 years of age. Her pride prevented her from doing normal day to day routine things that we take for granted. One day something clicked in her mind and she sought an association. She went to school at a very late age. She even tried to hide from her own children that she was illiterate.

People like that do not venture forward. If we can help them in any way at all, if we can put that $8.6 million toward photographs on the ballots, then surely it will be simple to decide whether it should be a black and white or colour photo. We have decided this for driver's licences. In Quebec we have decided this for medicare cards.

I do not see anything wrong with deciding whether it should be a colour or black and white photo, how much it would cost, what the criteria for the use of photographs should be, whether it should be a photograph that is one year old or more recent. We do it for our passports. We do not use just any picture for our passports. It has to be stamped and certified.

I do not think the cost would be outrageous. I do not think the cost would be more than the nearly $9 million Elections Canada spends today to advise people who are illiterate.

The bill my colleague has put forward is well worth sending to committee. That is what he is asking. He is not saying that it is a perfect bill or that there are not unanswered questions. Of course there are as with all changes and unanswered questions, but not unanswered questions that defy solutions. Of course they do not defy solutions.

The member is asking for a majority vote in this House on the motion for second reading so we can send the bill to a committee. The committee can have hearings. The committee can hear from Elections Canada and the organizations representing illiterate and handicapped people.

It is well worth our support. I strongly support the bill my colleague has brought forward. He can make amendments in committee. He can propose amendments to the bill which is what he intends to do.

I have discussed with my colleague what he would like to do. He does not want to just accept piecemeal amendments at this stage. He wants to listen to what the witnesses have to say during the hearings. There may be one, two, three or four amendments to bring forward which he would be prepared to consider because he is completely open minded. He wants to safeguard the principle.

With that in mind, I would like to express my strong support for the bill proposed by my colleague from Verdun—Saint-Henri.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

I want to go back to the motion moved by the hon. member for Verchères—Les-Patriotes.

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move this amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault)]

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.