Debates of Dec. 11th, 2001

The Budget

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have heard the member make this point before. I would just like him to explain that to Canadians because in fact the premiers of none of these provinces agree with him. Is he saying the premiers are all wrong?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

What is he saying? Is he saying the people of Canada cannot understand?

They are hollering yes across the way, Mr. Speaker.

I give the people of this country more credit than that. They know what is happening with health care funding. I give the premiers of this country a lot more credit than that. They know what is happening with health care funding in the country and they know that they have been made to carry the burden more and more. The federal government has reduced its burden to a point where it is paying less than the government was when the Liberals came into government in 1993 and that is unfair.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to stand in this place and to partake in the budget debate. This is the first time since being elected just a little over a year ago that I have had the opportunity to participate in a budget debate, because as we all know it is the first budget we have seen in this parliament and in probably almost two years. It is time that the finance minister indulged our interest and that of many Canadians in dealing with our financial well-being and gave us some type of indication as to the course that he has charted in these turbulent times.

As a first time member, I sat and listened yesterday and I listened intently. As the critic for the solicitor general, I was listening particularly for a mention of CSIS, the RCMP and Corrections Canada in the budget. However, as a member representing an agricultural riding, I also listened intently to the speech that our finance minister brought forth as to how it would impact agriculture. I listened in order to hear to how it would affect the farm family, how it would affect the agricultural sector. I listened and I listened and I listened. There was really no response. It is a sad commentary when the Liberal government has forgotten a very important sector of our economy, agriculture, because it affects so many in the west and the regions of Canada.

However, it is a pleasure to be here today. I stood in the House over a month ago debating Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism legislation. I began that deliberation with a quote from the Toronto Star . Although I do not have time today to quote the whole article again, I would like to quote one or two sentences by James Travers from that article:

Now the federal government is desperately trying to respond by bringing forward legislation and introducing security measures that for years have been relegated to the bottom of the agenda. It clearly hopes that the current flurry of activity will somehow mask years of inaction.

On that note, I would like to say that this is the same response that we e see in this budget: years of inaction, years of forgetting to bring in a budget and now setting a course to try to rectify it. What do we see?

Witnesses from the Canadian Police Association, representing some 30,000 frontline police personnel in Canada, including RCMP officers, recently appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights regarding Bill C-36. During that presentation the association stated:

We have serious reservations...about the capability of Canada's police and law enforcement officials to meet the increased demands of anti-terrorism requirements and sustain important domestic policing and law enforcement responsibilities.

Let us make this abundantly clear. The Canadian Police Association request for more resources, and that is what it was asking for on that date, was not a knee-jerk reaction to the September 11 tragedy. It was the realization that there was a much larger problem.

For nearly a decade the Canadian Police Association has been requesting more money so frontline officers can effectively do the job, all of the job, not a selective part, not just a small amount, but all of the job. It has repeatedly asked the federal government to move on repairing the gaping holes in Canada's security and enforcement capabilities. Until then, it had not had much luck.

Our frontline officers were not successful in beefing up their numbers until the horrific events of September 11 highlighted the fact that Canada is viewed internationally as a point of entry. The events of September 11 made the government and many people recognize that Canada was an entry for access to the United States for criminals and terrorists.

Therefore, although we welcome the increased dollars given to the RCMP, as announced in yesterday's budget, I would be remiss if I did not point out that it is perhaps too late and perhaps also too little. The bleeding within our security and intelligence agencies has been occurring for so long that the band-aid approach we saw yesterday simply will not stop the bleeding.

According to RCMP commissioner Zaccardelli's own admission, 2,000 RCMP officers were withdrawn from other enforcement duties to respond to the terrorism crisis. The officers were taken from assignments previously considered to be priorities, such as fighting organized crime, providing frontline policing in their communities and waging the battle against drugs. Many of those jobs were left unattended as the RCMP scurried to deal with the latest crisis within its current budget constraints. Officers previously assigned to organized crime priorities had to abandon their investigations for anti-terrorist assignments.

According to the CPA, of the complement of approximately 15,000 RCMP officers, 9,000 are assigned to municipal and provincial contract policing responsibilities. Of the remaining 6,000, 2,000 of those or one-third, were reassigned to the terrorism file as confirmed by the commissioner of the RCMP.

Minimally, 2,000 additional officers are needed to service the deficiencies that are being felt hardest at the community levels. Taking the Canadian Police Association's estimates of $125,000 per officer, at minimum the RCMP should be given $250 million for staff alone. Yesterday's announcement falls much short of that mark.

Of the solicitor general's previous funding increases of $250 million, only $9 million was allocated to provide for staffing in priority areas for the RCMP. This, again based on the Canadian Police Association's estimates, equated to only roughly 72 full time RCMP constable positions. Obviously this was not sufficient to address in any meaningful way the new and existing national policing demands placed on the RCMP.

The Canadian Police Association, therefore, desperately looking for some salvation in this budget, failed. The government failed and fell short of the CPA's needs and expectations.

I will turn to the other and equally important component of Canada's security force, that being the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS. Yesterday I had the pleasure, together with our Sub-committee on National Security, to go to CSIS offices to be briefed by the director, Mr. Ward Elcock.

Yesterday the government announced funding for CSIS of $334 million over a six year period. This amounts to $56 million per year. The new funding does not, on average, bring CSIS funding to the level it experienced in 1993. In 1993, funding for CSIS was $244 million. Under the Liberal government, funding was cut to $197 million in 2001. Funding cuts were occurring at a time when terrorism throughout the world was becoming more violent, more indiscriminate and more unpredictable. CSIS, in its 2000 public report, brought that out. It said:

Up to now, CSIS has been able to risk-manage the challenges. However, the terrorist events of late 1999 underscored the continuing requirement to review efficiency within the context of the existing threat environment, with particular emphasis on the allocation of human resources. More than ever, the Service--

This is the service dealing with our national security.

--must rely on risk management, concentrating resources selectively and precisely on the major issues, while assessing new and emerging threats.

What the report was stating was that CSIS was seeing acts of terrorism increasing and its budget decreasing. I would like to highlight the fact that this report was released before September 11. Long before the attack on America, CSIS was experiencing staffing shortages and a serious lack of trained analysts. Between 1992 and 1998 CSIS experienced a cut of 760 personnel.

Different individuals such as Wesley Wark of the University of Toronto and others brought forward the fact that money was needed but money was not enough. CSIS needed analysts and trained expertise. This budget does not allow them the resources that they need to bring them back to the 1993 level.

All these changes and enhancements as encouraged by many experts in the security field will cost much more than what was offered by the government yesterday. We need a stronger financial commitment. We need our federal government to stand and say that it recognizes the fight against terrorism will be a sustained one.

In closing, the budget is a start but it is not the whole enchilada. It is not what is needed by CSIS and the RCMP.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his remarks, particularly about CSIS. I am one who certainly feels that we have to get behind our national security services, although I have to note that the secret services, the security services, are very much in the business of risk management. That is what one does when in the business of counterespionage and the control of terrorists.

The member alluded several times to the fact that the provincial police, or the associations representing the provincial police, felt they were underfunded and there should be more funding. Does he not agree, given that the threat from terrorism is a national threat, that each level of government should undertake to support financially the areas under its jurisdiction? Just as there should be more spending or as much spending as possible or practical on CSIS and the RCMP, should we also expect the provinces to fund the municipal police who also have to carry the burden?

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question raises a point I should have brought forward.

Just in the last week the police chief from Toronto, Mr. Fantino, came forward and said that $1 million has been spent already, it is projected that $6 million will be needed and there is no commitment from the federal government. We sat yesterday and listened as the budget came down. We heard things like a $60 million increase for the CBC, yet nothing to the degree of what is needed for some of the security services.

The problem is that although it has been deemed as a security budget, there have been seven years of cuts. I should say that incrementally in the last two or three years we have seen very minor increases in budgets, but when a huge amount is cut in the first three or four years and then tidbits are given back incrementally, it is not sufficient.

Funding for CSIS in 1993 was $244 million. It fell to $197 million in 2001, a loss of $50 million. There is no way that one budget can bring it all back. When we hear about an increase to CSIS and the RCMP, we applaud that, but the problem is that one budget cannot rectify 10 years of slashing and hacking and cuts to the security of the nation and to the safety and security of every citizen in the country.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Speaker, in the member's speech he expressed his concern about farming. I understand he is from a farming community. I am as well.

I listened with great interest to the member's leader who spoke earlier today. He talked about going around to the farm kitchens listening to people who, with tears in their eyes, talked about their financial futures. His answer and demand to the government was to reduce taxes.

I understand that taxes are calculated based upon a person's income. For people who have income, why would a reduction in taxes be an answer from the Leader of the Opposition? How is it possible to speak with two tongues? He is telling me that people are so desperate in the farming community that they have no income but that an answer to that problem would be a reduction in personal income taxes.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, there is a disaster in the agricultural sector. Last night I spent time on the phone with a young lady from north of Drumheller in the Morrin area. I could feel her sense of frustration and her emotions as she talked about the commodity prices.

We talk about taxes. In a way the member is right. Tax cuts are right if people have the income. They would be cuts in income taxes but there are many other taxes, as the hon. member knows. For years our party has asked that the four cents excise tax on diesel fuel, the 10 cents on farm fuel, the taxes on the input costs be cut. The taxes could be pulled back at a time when agriculture needs the help.

There is no commitment in the budget to the western Canadian farmer. There is no commitment to agriculture. There is no commitment at a time when we hoped for one.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has done a tremendous job analyzing what needs to be done and moving that agenda forward. I compliment the Government of Canada. Every minister has looked at the budget very carefully and have made sure that it answers the questions which need to be answered.

Quite frankly, we seriously negotiated and worked on an agreement with people who required help, and I am referring to the provinces and the health care agreement that was made. There were very serious discussions and work in order to come up with a five year program. That five year program cost the federal government $23 billion more than what it would normally put out. The federal government's commitment to that program was not for one year. It was not a short term one but a long term one.

What we have heard from the opposition for many years is that we cannot just look at one year ahead, that we have to create stable funding. We hear that we have to create an agenda which shows everyone the direction in which we are going and which gives them support to institute programs over a longer period of time.

That is what the health minister and the finance minister did last year. They put in a program in health care which very carefully put money in the hands of the provinces. This year alone that agreement delivers $2.8 billion more into the health care system. There is no question the federal government this year alone will spend the highest dollars in health care than it has in any previous year. Some $35 billion will be transferred in health care and CHST payments to the provinces this year.

It is critical when we look at a program or a problem that we have the statistics and information to back that agenda. Roy Romanow is looking at the health care system across the country. The federal government as well as the provinces know that alterations and changes are required to the health care system. To be responsible and move that agenda forward, we funded a program for a five year period. We sent a task force out to discover what further needed to be done in order to enhance health care in the country.

There is no question that is a very responsible agenda to move on. It is one that will pay off for Canadians not only today but in the future.

It is a misrepresentation in my opinion if it is said that there are no new dollars in health care. We are adding $2.8 billion this year alone to health care in the provinces.

Sometimes in the debates and discussions, there are very different viewpoints of what is happening. Those have to be pointed out here.

As well, when it is said there are no tax cuts, I recall the largest tax cut ever created over a five year period. It was not just for last year, but for last year, this year and the next three years. A five year period of time has been set for tax cuts. Canadians will receive the benefit of those tax cuts over that five year period. To suggest that this year there are no tax cuts is wrong.

We have to keep things in perspective. A year ago no one would have ever suggested that Canada needed a budget for terrorism, a budget for safety, or a budget for air transportation. Those are new because of what happened on September 11.

As a result the minister and the government responded strongly. They looked at police and military services and at the requirements at the border, realizing that we must have a seamless border allowing goods to flow back and forth between Canada and the United States in an appropriate and proper way.

The minister and the government looked at our immigration policy and responded by making certain that the safety of the nation was put in place. At the same time they took into account the perspective that we must not only be safe but our neighbours must see that we are moving in the strongest way toward making this nation safe.

It is extremely important that trade from Canada flows to and from the United States in a seamless fashion and flows well. If we do not appear to be in that state, which works hand in hand with our American counterparts and delivers goods and people safely, then we will have major business problems.

The United States uses more products manufactured in Canada on a daily basis than Canadians do. We sell most of our resources to the United States. That partnership is extremely important to both countries. There is about $2 billion of goods flowing back and forth between Canada and the United States every day. We know how significant that is to the Canadian economy. We must reinforce that and make it our chief priority. The government has taken into account that as a secure nation we stand to lose what we have in the commerce that goes on in this country.

A House of Commons task force has gone across the country looking at the problems and has presented reports to the government. The government has reacted to those reports in a stern and careful way.

Extensions to agreements with the American government have been carried out. The American ambassador, trade representatives and the U.S. president have all met with their respective counterparts making certain that questions are answered. This goes back to the whole idea of security and moving forward with the budget. There is no question that has to be a chief priority.

I would like to talk about economics too. We have low interest rates. Infrastructure programming would add $2 billion to the economy. We would take steps to make sure that work programs go forward. We know that on a financial basis workers would be given opportunities in this slower time and people would be able to buy goods and services they would otherwise not buy.

The $100 billion tax cuts would help the average person put more dollars in his or her pocket. The initiatives made in the budget and in the previous year would come together to ensure that Canada would be the safest nation in the world, not only physically and financially but also economically. That is what this is all about.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Canadian Alliance, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Speaker, in my view government is no more than people and their resources. I have seen signs in the last 10 years that are disturbing for our country. We must compare ourselves to the U.S. Canada has had a huge decline in productivity and disposable income. Regional disparity has become worse, not better.

Canada is suffering from a brain drain to the U.S. of our best and brightest in frightening numbers. The government subsidizes and regulates certain sectors of the economy. Air Canada is one example of these sectors and the Liberal way of doing things.

If these productivity trends and the decline in our standard of living continue, where are we heading? Are we heading toward a 45 cent or 48 cent dollar? Are we heading toward a third rate economy? What happens to government programs when the economy hits those sorts of levels?

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member's question. It is important to realize that Canada stands very well.

I talk to a lot of industry people. I talk to leaders at Ford, Chrysler and General Motors. They tell me that the greatest opportunity they have is in Canada. Our low interest rates provide good job opportunities. Our health care system makes Canada an excellent place to be. The productivity of our workers in their plants is excellent.

There is no question when we look at what is happening in the workplace in Canada that our workers are the best. I would argue that with anyone in the House. Our interest rates and production quotas from Canada to the United States make those companies want to exist here. The only major barrier is access to a seamless border. We must ensure we maintain a seamless border.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, in previous budgets there used to be employment figures and unemployment rate projections. They have not appeared in any of the budgets since 1996. Why have those figures been removed?

On page 9 of “The Budget Speech 2001” it says that the premise of the budget is to keep terrorists out. I have been on the phone most of the day with coast guard officials on both coasts. They said that the money allocated to the coast guard in the budget over a five year period would not stop terrorists from floating into Canada on all three of our coasts and doing us harm.

We need enhanced radar screens, coastal surveillance and flight patrols to keep terrorists out. Why has the budget not addressed those needs?

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comment. I do not know what terrorists are floating into Canada today. I do not know that anyone in the House knows of terrorists floating into Canada. The budget would fund technological equipment to be used at our borders to secure and check passengers.

I had an opportunity to look at what was happening in the port of Vancouver. Customs officials informed us what kind of equipment they needed. There were some positive vibes about the possibility of having radar equipment or other technology they could use to identify containers coming into the country.

The member asked about unemployment numbers. We get the unemployment numbers for every area in the country on a quarterly basis. If you do not read them that is your problem. They are produced by HRDC. We see them there--

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. Before I take a brief question from the hon. member for Peterborough, I remind hon. members to make their interventions through the Chair. It gets kind of lonely up here at times.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague. I have a short question for him with respect to agriculture and the rural areas in the budget. In my view the rural areas have benefited from the research and the communications portions of the budget.

The vision of the minister of agriculture regarding sustainable agriculture is mentioned. Would the member comment on the fact that a small business with a $250,000 bank loan, which would often be a farm, would save $9,000 this year because of the strong economy and reduced interest rates?

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Bob Friesen, president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, looks at the budget as a positive move. He states:

We are pleased to hear Mr. Martin recognize the work that federal and provincial governments, alongside industry, have done to develop a long term plan for Canadian agriculture. We are pleased to see a firm commitment to this process put in writing in this federal budget. The door is open for governments and industry to move ahead with building a new, integrated and financially sustainable agricultural policy.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will have great difficulty following my colleague. I should have offered him my 10 minutes as he was doing such a great job.

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak to the budget. It is an important one as we all know. I congratulate the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister for having the foresight and the vision to recognize some of the issues and concerns that we have all been talking about.

We have managed to get a balanced budget in spite of the pressures of September 11. This is the fifth time in 50 years that we have been able to have a balanced budget. That is very significant and it is something that we should be proud of as Canadians.

Canada is the only G-7 country that has managed to balance its books this year. That is a strong indication, contrary to what some of my colleagues across the Chamber may say. The government is fiscally responsible and is doing a good job of managing its books. We are constantly looking for better ways to do everything. That is a compliment to the team we have over here.

We are delivering a proportionately larger economic stimulus package than the United States. We must always keep in perspective that we are not as big as the United States. We need to applaud and be proud when we can put together a package that would stimulate the economy more than what the U.S. is doing.

I will concentrate on the urban regions as chair of the Prime Minister's task force on urban regions. I will share what we have been hearing across the country. First, I congratulate my colleagues who sit on the caucus task force with me on the great job they have been doing over the last six months as we toured the country, listened to hundreds of people and met with a variety of organizations.

We met about 270 organizations and talked with people in large urban regions. We identified issues, problems and the role of the federal government when it came to trying to find solutions.

One of the things they wanted to see was leadership from the federal government. They felt frustrated with the current system. They expect the federal government to show leadership on many of these issues and to be the one to call the parties to the table to negotiate a solution to any ongoing problem. They did not want to be left alone out there.

The issue of public transportation continued to be raised. Should we be in public transit? It was not a role the federal government played previously. It has traditionally been a provincial responsibility. It was one of the questions that needed to be answered.

People were looking to governments and their partners for solutions to transportation gridlock in our large cities. Some people were taking an hour or an hour and a half to get home at night. We need to look at air quality and the whole deterioration in the quality of life that people are feeling in some of these large urban regions.

The issue of keeping not only goods moving but keeping people moving in our cities, across our highways and our roads is very important.

Housing was raised in every urban region we visited. I congratulate the minister for being able to put together a package that was acceptable to most of the provinces. I hope Ontario will come to the table to help meet the important need that we all recognize. People have a need for housing so that their families can be stable and their children can grow up in a safe, clean environment.

The brownfields issue was mentioned in the budget. I am pleased with that because there is an enormous problem in that regard. It gives us an opportunity to deal with the issue of urban sprawl by taking some of those lands and using them for everything from recreation to housing. It would help to decrease some of the urban sprawl.

There are issues in and around our aboriginal communities. We are looking at solutions to help them up and not necessarily to help them stay where they are.They want empowerment and they are looking to us to assist them in the aboriginal communities.

Air and water quality are big issues that we heard a lot about. There was also the issue of keeping Canadians safe with a good quality of life in cities throughout our country.

The task force communicated all of these issues to the Minister of Finance. I must say I was very pleased, as were my colleagues on the task force, that these issues were touched on and addressed in the budget.

We must also acknowledge the work that the FCM has been doing with us in making sure that the urban region agenda is on the federal highlights so that we can find answers to some of these problems. Certainly the budget recognized the important role of our urban regions and the economic and social fabric of the country. It is critical that it do well so that we will all do well.

In so doing, the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister have put together a brand new program with a $2 billion strategic infrastructure foundation. We will have an opportunity to work with private partners on large urban projects.

The funding of subways and a variety of light rail transit systems and so on in our cities are big ticket items. The cities cannot do it on their own. They need senior levels or other levels of government to assist them in achieving their goals. That is important. We all recognize the importance of having a solid infrastructure in our cities.

There was talk about highways, overpasses, bridges and so on in Montreal. All of that is critical to the movement of goods and people. Again, this new $2 billion strategic infrastructure foundation will begin to answer some of those problems we have to deal with. Another $600 million was put into highway infrastructure which will help with the highway problems and the pressures of moving people and goods. People will not be wasting their time sitting in traffic jams not being able to move their goods and deciding that they will not stay in business here but will go elsewhere.

The doubling of the green municipal enabling fund and the green municipal investment fund are initiatives of the government with the FCM. The FCM has been extremely successful in coming up with innovative solutions to problems and assisting our large urban regions. We all recognize that the urban regions are the crucial drivers of our economy and are critical for our success in the future.

The focus on security also speaks to this issue. If our borders are not secure and our trucks cannot get through in a timely way, our economy will be choked. The efficient movement of goods is crucial to the success of our regions.

There is the broadband investment to connect Canadians. We are connecting all Canadians. We were the first country to connect all of our schools and libraries through the Internet. Those are very important initiatives. I am glad more money is being put into it.

There is support for the police. There is a fair amount of money in the budget for CSIS and the RCMP so that they can have more integration and more co-ordination of all of the services we are dealing with. That continues on and we are continuing to put money into those areas.

Those are good investments. They will allow our country to grow. They will get us through the difficult times ahead.

As well we are looking at how we control our budget with the pressures we will be facing and pay down the debt. We do not want to leave our children with an enormous debt that they have to carry. We are building a nation that is prosperous for all of us.

An investment of another $200 million has gone into universities, as well as the additional money for CIHR and research. The health committee has been talking a lot about research, the need to do stem cell research and so on. All of the money that we are putting into research will hopefully find the solutions to some of the major diseases that affect thousands of people in Canada today. Some $25 million has gone toward the issue of fetal alcohol syndrome, which affects a lot of our children, especially in the aboriginal community. That is another avenue we are looking at.

We hear lots of rhetoric from the other side. That is the way the game goes on. We are supposed to be debating issues, but a lot of it is rhetoric.

This is a good budget. It provides money for the future and money to grow. It is good for our economy and good for Canada. I congratulate everyone involved.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would not call our debates here a game. I think they are very important.

My colleague across the way mentioned infrastructure quite extensively within her comments. We have a situation where the federal government imposes a fuel tax on individuals who drive. Very little of those fuel taxes go back into the infrastructure programs for which they could be used, particularly in my home province of British Columbia. Hundreds of millions of dollars are wrung out of individuals within that province. Less than 4% of that comes back to the province in any infrastructure program.

I want to ask the hon. member a question about the distribution of the infrastructure programs. Does she agree that it is a good thing to take hundreds of millions of dollars out of one region and not put any of the money back into the region from which it has been taxed?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of fuel taxes is something we talked a lot about when doing our work with the urban regions. People have been pointing out that issue. They think that getting four cents of the fuel tax would be very helpful. If we transfer $100 million but then decide to only transfer $60 million and give back four cents on the fuel tax, at the end of the day I am not sure that the province is that much farther ahead.

The issue is to keep the flexibility in government. When we see the need, the government can shift the money around as the need arises. To recognize and deal with all the pressures needs government flexibility.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the problem with the infrastructure foundation is that it is not answerable to parliament. A committee of people will be picked by the Liberals. Who will decide what area of the country gets that infrastructure funding? It is another display of the Liberals ignoring parliament.

The auditor general said that she had great concerns about these foundations and what did the Liberals do? They brought in another one. I would like the hon. member's comments on that.

I wish to put on the record that the cat is out of the bag. The minister has told us that the first Sea King replacements should arrive by the end of 2005. The budget clearly indicates that is not going to happen. We have been saying all along that these replacements will be in 2007-08 and that is the fact of the matter, but that is just for the record.

I ask the member, why is the government ignoring the aspects of parliament and building a foundation to allocate resources in terms of infrastructure? Why should it not be from parliament?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the transport committee at one point in its deliberations had recommended that it was a good idea to create the foundation. The big advantage of creating the foundation is that it will lever other money. It is hoped that the $2 billion we are putting place very quickly could end up being $4 billion, $6 billion or $8 billion that could be used to improve the infrastructure.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for York West is the chair of the Liberal urban task force. I attended one of the meetings in Vancouver.

It is correct that many groups are pleading with the government for infrastructure, for sewage upgrading, water upgrading, public transit, housing.

I would like to draw to the member's attention that there was a previous Liberal task force on housing. It was chaired by the now finance minister when in opposition in 1990. In the report he pointed out the great need for housing. We have seen no action on that.

How does the member expect Canadians to have any belief in the credibility of a task force, when we see a task force put forward for political reasons and the actual resources--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for York West.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one thing which gave me great happiness yesterday was when I turned to page 125 of the budget. It talks about a brand new program of $2 billion as one example. It talks about the issue of brown fields. These were recommendations that the task force made to the Minister of Finance. They were specifically in a budget far ahead of the time I would have expected them to be there. It is certainly clear to me that the government is listening and responding.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak on behalf of the New Democratic Party in response to the budget. I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Palliser.

The budget is the most political tool the government has. There are a lot of myths about federal budgets mostly coming from a very right wing agenda. One of the myths is that budgets are bound by economic rules, that there are things we cannot do, that we have to pay down the deficit or the debt, or that it is about tax breaks. All these myths revolve around a budget.

In actual fact a budget is the most political vehicle any government has to make very real choices about who the winners are and who the losers are. That is the perspective with which we have to look at the budget and respond to what we heard yesterday from the finance minister.

In looking at the budget there is no conclusion one can come to except that it is a massive security budget. While Canadians have very serious concerns around security issues, we have to ask whether or not the $7.7 billion being directed toward security measures is going to provide the kind of help, relief and support that ordinary Canadians and average families across the country need. I have some very serious questions about that.

The hon. member across the way said a few moments ago that the budget was about facilitating economic security, but the question is, economic security for whom? Clearly the government's agenda is to continue along a path of providing economic security for huge corporations. Trade is important but we also have to place on the table the economic security of the most vulnerable in our society, poor Canadians who do not have jobs, or the two out of three unemployed workers who have paid into EI but are no longer eligible for EI. Their economic security issues are just as important as the economic security issues of trucking corporations or large trade organizations.

For the constituents whom I represent in my community of East Vancouver, the budget has created a greater number of people who feel that they are at the short end of the stick. Even the Globe and Mail in reporting on the budget reaction has characterized it as last year's pledges barely fulfilled. Even those pledges were so incredibly minimal in terms of grappling with the very real issues facing Canadians that it is really quite pathetic.

We have to be very critical about the budget that was put forward. We have to recognize the reality in the country that the gap between very wealthy people and very poor people has surged to a 25 year high. In some of the European social democratic countries, the real measure of health and security is a decreasing gap between wealthy people and poor people. In our country that gap is widening.

It is regrettable that just a few days ago the co-ordinator of Campaign 2000, Laurel Rothman, remarked “When we look at the latest figures on child poverty, the alarm bells should start ringing”. I would agree with her. She pointed out that governments had the option in the boom years of investing in a long term vision for children but instead, the government chose to cut taxes and dismantle social services. She said “The average family on welfare now receives 12% less than it would have several years ago”.

She went on to point out, and this has been reinforced by the Canadian Labour Congress, that currently two out of three unemployed workers who have paid premiums cannot qualify for benefits while the insurance program scores an $8 billion a year so-called surplus.

This has to be considered one of the biggest rip-offs in the country. Working people are being robbed of their right to use the insurance they paid into when they face hard times or unemployment.

Rather than easing the eligibility rules, doing away with the waiting period and ensuring that benefits are increased so that people have a decent income so they do not have to live below the poverty line, what did the government do? It made a few minor adjustments in terms of the apprenticeship program for people who go off the job and back into the classroom.

In terms of dealing with the fundamental inequities, inequalities and discrimination in this program, the government has again failed to hear what the labour movement, unions and working people have said. That is a real disgrace. It is a real indictment on this budget. On the one hand, the finance minister speaks quite handily about how this is a big security budget and it will help Canadians. On the other hand, the federal government has met the absolute bare minimum in pledges that it has put forward.

Yesterday in the House I raised the issue of students who were struggling with increasing debt loads and finding it more and more difficult to pay tuition fees as fees continued to rise and their debt load continued to go up. I asked the minister responsible for the Canada student loan program how she could defend years of government policies that prompted Statistics Canada to produce a report which made it clear that students who came from affluent families were two and a half times more likely to go to university than a student from a low income family.

The minister's reply to that was very typical of the kinds of responses we have heard from the government. She said:

Our record is clear. We know that higher education is incredibly important to the future of all Canadians and we want to be there to help them in this regard.

When I look at the record of what the government has done to help students in terms of financial accessibility, it is quite appalling. There was nothing in yesterday's budget that would improve the accessibility, particularly for low income students, so that kind of report from Statistics Canada would become something of the past and a piece of history.

I also want to turn my comments to the situation facing people who are in great need of affordable housing. In September I travelled across the country to seven different communities, mostly urban environments but I also went to Iqaluit. I spoke with housing activists to find out whether they believed the initiatives that the government had undertaken since 1998 had impacted on the increasing homelessness in the country.

What I was told was no surprise. It is something that should be very evident to people in local communities. They told me that not only was homelessness on the rise, but we had a situation where over 800,000 Canadian households were paying more than 50% of their income on rent and an estimated quarter of a million Canadians were homeless.

The issue of housing and the need for a fully funded national housing program is something the government has absolutely ignored. We heard the finance minister speak about the framework agreement. I want to be very clear. The agreement that the government has come to is only one-tenth of the 1% solution for which we have been fighting. We may see the provision of about 5,400 units per year. We need closer to 20,000 or 30,000 units. The $136 million a year for five years, which was promised so many times and which was re-announced in yesterday's budget, does not even come close to meeting the huge gap that exists for people who are fighting for affordable housing.

This budget is about choices. The finance minister has chosen to ignore the people who are most at risk; aboriginal people, poor people, kids who are living in poverty and families who are looking for housing. He has chosen to ignore the very real economic security issues facing those families. However I am proud to say that we in the New Democratic Party do not. We choose to make that the priority.