House of Commons Hansard #14 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was americas.

Topics

Privilege

10 a.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, this will only take a minute or so of the time of the House, and I apologize for taking up any time of the House.

I understand a question of privilege is the only device by which I can raise this issue. At page 388 of Hansard of Thursday, February 8, 2001, stated in English, and I made the speech in English:

As members of the government we are accountable to a Prime Minister who is personally accountable to the House and to Canadians generally.

In other words, ministers are accountable to a Prime Minister. Of course, that is the way it is constitutionally.

I would not have raised this issue other than the fact that members of the media have utilized the French text, which stated almost the opposite.

The French text reads:

En tant que députés, nous sommes responsables devant le premier ministre, qui est lui-même personnellement responsable devant la Chambre des communes et les Canadiens en général.

The French text stated that all members of the House are personally accountable to the Prime Minister. Although colleagues across the way would perhaps want to make a political point about it, it is factually inaccurate. It is not what was said. Unfortunately this has led the media to utilize the French text as being that which I said when Hansard indicated that I was speaking in the English language at the time.

Privilege

10 a.m.

The Speaker

I think it is clear that the minister has raised a question of privilege which is in the nature of a grievance. I think he has made his point and we will leave the matter there.

Canadian Human Rights Commission

10 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I have the honour to lay upon the table the special report to parliament by the Canadian Human Rights Commission on wage parity.

Interparliamentary DelegationsRoutine Proceedings

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34, I have the honour to table in the House, in both official languages, the report of the Canadian section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie, and the financial report relating to it.

The report concerns the meeting of the assembly held in Caen, France, from December 13 to 15, 2000.

Canada Elections ActRoutine Proceedings

10 a.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

moved to introduce Bill C-9, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Scarborough—Rouge River Ontario

Liberal

Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the notice of two days ago, I move concurrence in the first report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs dealing with membership of our standing committees.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is there unanimous consent?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am not certain that required unanimous consent, but we are delighted to have unanimity in the concurrence.

Also in relation to the membership of committees, and this will require consent, if the House gives its consent I move:

That, the following members be added to the list of associate members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs:

Jim Abbott, James Lunney, Diane Ablonczy, Peter MacKay, Rob Anders, Preston Manning, David Anderson, Inky Mark, Roy Bailey, Keith Martin, Leon Benoit, Philip Mayfield, Michel Bellehumeur, Réal Ménard, Andy Burton, Val Meredith, Chuck Cadman, Rob Merrifield, Rick Casson, Bob Mills, Dave Chatters, James Moore, John Cummins, Lorne Nystrom, Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Deepak Obhrai, Stockwell Day, Brian Pallister, John Duncan, Jim Pankiw, Reed Elley, Charlie Penson, Ken Epp, Joe Peschisolido, Brian Fitzpatrick, James Rajotte, Paul Forseth, Scott Reid, Cheryl Gallant, Gerry Ritz, Peter Goldring, Caroline St-Hilaire, Jim Gouk, Werner Schmidt, Gurmant Grewal, Carol Skelton, Deborah Grey, Monte Solberg, Art Hanger, Kevin Sorenson, Dick Harris, Larry Spencer, Grant Hill, Darrel Stinson, Jay Hill, Myron Thompson, Howard Hilstrom, Vic Toews, Betty Hinton, Maurice Vellacott, Rahim Jaffer, Randy White, Dale Johnston, Ted White, Jason Kenney, John Williams, Gary Lunn, Lynne Yelich

I ask that this be adopted on consent.

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is there unanimous consent?

Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Scarborough—Rouge River Ontario

Liberal

Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is that agreed?

Questions On The Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

moved:

That this House demands that the government bring any draft agreement on the Free Trade Zone of the Americas before the House so that it may be debated and put to a vote before ratification by the Government of Canada.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC

Mr. Speaker, I just want to indicate that throughout the day, until the end of this debate tonight, the members of the Bloc Quebecois will be splitting their time and keeping their speeches to 10 minutes.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

We will do that.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, first, I want to pay tribute to André d'Allemagne who was not only a friend, but a colleague of mine. We both taught at the Collège Maisonneuve for over eight years.

He recently passed away at the age of 71. He was a pioneer of the sovereignty movement and an educator, not only in his capacity as a teacher but also at the political level. Quebec has lost a first class citizen to whom I wanted to pay tribute today.

This being my maiden speech in the House, I would also like to thank the people of the riding of Joliette for the trust they put in me last November 27. I can assure them today, as I did during the election campaign, that I will defend the interests of Quebec and of my fellow citizens of Joliette.

Introducing this motion today offers me the first opportunity to ensure that their interests are defended. The motion reads as follows:

That this House demand that the government bring any draft agreement on the Free Trade Zone of the Americas before the House so that it may be debated and put to a vote before ratification by the Government of Canada.

From April 20 to 22, the 34 heads of state and of government of the Americas, with the exception of Cuba, will be holding the third summit of the Americas in Quebec City. This will be an extremely important event as far as the process of creating a free trade area of the Americas is concerned. The related agreement is slated for around 2005. Creation of a free trade area of the Americas is both an extraordinary challenge for all the states and peoples of the Americas and an extraordinary opportunity. It can, however, involve considerable risk.

Creation of a free trade area is far from being a guarantee, a cure-all, for all our woes, whether economic or social. This we have seen, moreover, with the creation of the North American Free Trade Agreement and the NAFTA area encompassing Canada, Quebec, the United States and Mexico. For example, its creation did not prevent the crisis of the peso and the widening of the social gap. In our societies—and this applies to Canada, the United States and Mexico— more and more people are living not only in poverty but in abject poverty. We must therefore be extremely vigilant in negotiating or creating these free trade areas, while still remaining open to the process.

This process must be the result of democratic debate. That is why the Bloc Quebecois, through me, is today introducing this motion, because we have concerns. We are concerned for Quebec's rights first, because obviously it is always troubling to see the federal government negotiate on behalf of Quebecers on the economic, social and cultural front. But we are also concerned for all Canadians and Quebecers as far as respect of social and environmental rights is concerned.

In the past our governments, and this is true for the federal government, but also for the U.S. and Mexican governments, were not vigilant or, I would say, were not overly concerned about the social, environmental, political and cultural consequences of these trade agreements.

As an unionist, I was able to follow these debates from the start, in the mid-eighties. I recall very well that in 1989—and the federal Liberals were by the way in agreement with us on that— we were not taking into account the fact that the negotiation of free trade agreements with the United States was going to have social and environmental implications. We can now see that. For example, Bill C-2 on employment insurance is a direct consequence, and this is not the only reason, of the free trade agreement with the United States and Mexico. We now know that our employment insurance plan reflects more or less what exists in most of the states in the U.S.

In 1989, during the negotiation of the free trade agreement with the United States, we did not want to recognize that there were social, environmental and cultural implications. In 1994, because of public pressure in Canada, Quebec, the United States and Mexico, governments were forced to adopt, at the same time as the North American Free Trade Agreement, side accords on environmental and labour standards. These accords were signed because of public pressure and pressure from parliamentarians, particularly in the United States.

Recently, in 2001, the Prime Minister made a speech in which he alluded to the possibility of introducing social clauses in the agreement. This is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. However, we must not give up. The public and parliamentarians must continue to exert pressure to ensure that the free trade agreement of the Americas will include clauses that protect our social and environmental rights and also Quebec's interests.

Canada and Quebec have open economies. We have a vested interest in trade liberalization. These agreements are also extraordinary opportunities for co-operation with countries from the south and even within our societies. However, this integration of the economies and of the markets must be controlled by introducing social clauses, particularly to protect labour rights.

Let us be clear. When we talk about protecting labour rights, we are not talking about standards. We are talking about fundamental rights that are recognized by the International Labour Organization, rights such as the banning of child labour, forced labour and discrimination, and the recognition of the freedom of association and of the right to collective bargaining.

How will each country in the Americas implement these rights? It will be up to them, based on their respective histories and cultures. I often give the example—and I will do it again here in the House—that in Canada, the United States and Quebec we recognize the freedom of association through very specific forms of union certification. In Mexico and in Latin American countries, this may be done in a different way. It is also done differently in Europe. The important thing is for governments to pledge to respect those fundamental rights in the way that will better suit these societies.

Likewise, the approach that we favour is not a punitive one. In this respect, Latin-American countries need not fear the emergence of a new form of social protectionism. It is rather by co-operation that we want to help those countries, as well as our own North-American countries, respect those rights. Let us not forget that we are in no position to lecture anyone. We sometimes have things to learn from others.

It is therefore a co-operative approach that we favour, not one of sanctions. The same applies for the environment. We have to ensure that the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas will clearly indicate the common desire of all the populations of the Americas to promote a sound and sustainable environment.

To that end, civil societies and parliamentarians have to play an active role in the negotiation process. The texts on which negotiations are based should be made available so that Quebecers and Canadians, as well as the members of the House, will be able to evaluate the validity and accuracy of the Canadian government's positions regarding what is being done in the free trade area of the Americas negotiation process.

It seems to me that we should have learned from what happened with the multilateral agreement on investment that was secretly negotiated for two years at the OECD. Sooner or later the basic texts will be made public. A citizen group is sure to release them. This will give rise to a negative reaction against the whole process, even though the process could have been well defined.

Transparency is therefore very important. So there is reason for concern, particularly with statements like the one made by the Minister for International Trade in the House on February 1.

As for the negotiating documents, obviously there are 34 parties to it. It is not up to Canada to share it if other countries do not want to share it. Canada would support sharing it at this stage. However our partners do not wish that. We will respect them.

We are extremely concerned that, even though we are only at the negotiating stage, already the Canadian government is not assuming a leadership role with respect to this minimum requirement of transparency. As for contradictory statements, we could add this one by Mr. Lortie, the Prime Minister's personal representative throughout the preparations for the summit of the Americas: “Too much transparency would be chaotic at this stage in the preparations”.

Is it possible to be too transparent? Is it possible to be too democratic? I do not think so. Parliamentarians must be able to debate these issues. That is why the Bloc Quebecois tabled this motion. We must ensure that the free trade area of the Americas agreement is discussed in the House. I urge the members of all political parties to ensure that we have some way of being able to evaluate the negotiations that will take place.

Recently, Mr. Chrétien stated—

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I remind members that they are not to refer to members, ministers or the Prime Minister by name in the House.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

I apologize, this is due to my inexperience.

Canada believes that it is through openness and transparency that we will convince the public of the legitimacy of the agreement. As host of the first summit of the Americas in this millennium, Canada will do everything in its power to promote openness and transparency. It is time to put our money where our mouth is and pass the motion I have introduced.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Speller Liberal Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to comment on a few of the issues. I know the hon. member is new and may not be aware of this, but the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade and a trade subcommittee on trade and trade disputes looked at the free trade area of the Americas in the last parliament.

We managed to consult Canadians all across the country to let them know the process and to be part of the process of this transparency that the Canadian government has been pushing in these negotiations.

I question what he said about there not being transparency. The websites contain the Canadian documentation and position papers. All Canadians and groups who are interested can read the information or take it off the websites. There are a few left to do and they are still under negotiations and consultations.

I also point out to the hon. member that Canada's position was not made somewhere in the back halls of the bureaucracy. All the provinces, premiers and Canadians were consulted first before the government came forward with its position. Canadians, interest groups and the provinces were consulted and then Canada put together a package of consultations.

I do want to ask a question on the motion which demands that parliament first vote on this issue before ratification. As the hon. member knows, generally we will agree on the issues and then there will be a vote.

However that is the American system that the hon. member is putting forward. Right now the Americans have a fast track way in which to get around that because no government will come to an agreement on an issue where it can all of a sudden be changed at the last minute by one group. We cannot negotiate that way. Does the hon. member not agree that this is not the right way to go and that this would only stall negotiations?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, since the beginning, the Bloc Quebecois has been trying to initiate this debate on the free trade area of the Americas, but government members pretend they do not understand our questions or views.

We do not have a problem with the Canadian position, even though the texts to which we have access seem particularly generous but also vague on the specific contents of the negotiations.

What I said in my speech, and I repeat it, is that we are not able to assess the validity and appropriateness of the Canadian government's position if we do not have access to the basic texts on the issues that are being negotiated by the 34 governments at the nine sectoral tables.

In that sense, there is a lack of transparency. Quebecers and Canadians are suspicious of the process and, as long as the government does not do something about it, that process will be flawed. Every day, various public groups express their concerns.

Just today we were told that a people's summit would be held. This does not go only for Canada. The whole process must be reviewed and our country must be a leader in that exercise. The Prime Minister said so, and I think that we must put words into action by making sure that this House plays an active role in the whole process.

We want to have access to the basic texts on which the negotiations will be based, so as to be able to assess Canada's position.

Second, and I am pleased that the hon. member mentioned it, parliamentarians in the United States have the privilege of debating the issue first and demanding a number of things before allowing the president to fast track the process. Democrat senators and representatives have made it clear to President Bush that there will be no fast tracking if the agreement does not include clauses on labour and the environment.

Unfortunately, we, in this House, do not have that possibility. If they have these guarantees, they will allow the American president to effectively use a fast track procedure, which will allow members of Congress to vote without amending the treaty, something which does not exist here in Canada.

I am asking for the equivalent of what exists in the U.S. Congress. In fact, any democracy should have these same rules.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, this morning I am proud to speak to the motion put forward by the promising and bright new member for Joliette. I knew him in another life when we were both younger.

It is useless to hide from the fact that the population is worried about the effects of globalization. Now, the free trade area that is in preparation is one of the major components of this globalization process that is developing and going on.

We must not forget that the World Trade Organization negotiations failed and that in the end this free trade area of the Americas will be somewhat a first. For the first time in a free trade area there will be highly developed countries like the United States, the richest country in the world, as well as countries of Central America and the southern hemisphere of the Americas which are, in some cases, very poor.

It is normal that the populations of Quebec, Canada, the United States and the countries of Central and South America are worried. We are not the only ones asking for more transparency. I would say that as a whole the population feels that there are opportunities to be found in globalization, but they know that these could be opportunities only for the rich and multinationals.

To make sure that the riches that could result from globalization benefit the majority, we must look at what is being negotiated. It is obvious.

Keeping the process secret will not make the concerns disappear. We will not make the concerns go away by telling people: “Go see what is on the Internet. Our positions are known”. We know the free trade area of the Americas is a negotiating process.

However, such a negotiation has been prepared for a long time by officials from all the countries. These officials most certainly have their opinion on the place where they think it should be held. We need more information to know where this place is, to ensure that this process, I say again, does not lead to some people getting richer and others getting poorer, and does not put pressure on social and labour conditions in general. Because globalization can be this process.

Incidentally, if the European Union is being built, it is because Europeans do not want the market to be concerned only with the economy. They also want to protect social rights and legitimate long fought gains made by workers. And this is done by paying attention, not by saying: “We will reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, we will say no to unionization by putting downward pressure on salaries and on working conditions for everyone in the future.”

We know investments will be discussed and are being discussed. Is what is on the table what had been prepared at the OECD? France put a stop to the MAI, the Multilateral Agreement on Investment, which gave unacceptable powers to investors. What is being prepared on this? We need to know.

The issue of services will be on the table, but we do not know which services are going to be included. The United States is pushing hard. We have been talking for a while about the environment, and social rights, or the lack thereof. We have been discussing what rules on competition would be acceptable.

People need to know the content of the basic negotiating documents. We need and have the right to know, so that we can have a public debate over the issues, meet with groups from the southern hemisphere countries who will explain their restrictions. To do that, we need to know where we are heading. With the present process, we cannot know.

Why should the Government of Quebec and other provincial governments be involved? Because they will be very directly affected.

Is it good enough to say, as the secretary of state just did, that the government had consultations two years ago? No, because the discussions that have taken place in the meantime affect us. We want to know what is at stake, and we have the right to know. It is not a matter of negotiating in public, but of knowing what the issues are.

Parliament also needs to get ready to be able to make a decision on the agreement before it is ratified. Let me remind the House that when we signed the first free trade agreement, which was our first leap of faith, the present Prime Minister, who was then in the opposition, was incensed over this agreement. An election was called on the issue. We had the text of the agreement then. We had the opportunity to examine it. Moreover, we all remember that the Prime Minister said he would not sign it unless important changes were made.

Will that party, which worked itself into a state over free trade at the time and then became its biggest supporter, tell us that consulting parliament is good for Americans, but not for Canadians?

I appeal to members sitting on both sides of the House. They must realize that, if FTA was a leap in the dark and NAFTA was put through without as much discussion, this one is quite another matter. With this, we are going global, we are entering a larger free trade zone with poor countries dealing with other constraints. It is crucial for us to know what is at stake in order to have the proper discussions and to be able to protect the people in the southern hemisphere, in South America and Central America, as well as here.

This is only the beginning of the debate I hope, but I am thankful that my party was the one to initiate it.

In conclusion, I move:

That the main motion be amended by adding after the words “demand that” the following:

“,in order to ensure openness,”

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

The amendment is in order.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Graham Liberal Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the remarks of the member for Mercier, whom I respect a great deal as an active member in the area of foreign affairs. I think, however, that she is misleading the House and the motion misleads the House, or at least the discussion so far is misleading.

There are two issues with which we have to concern ourselves. The first one is the issue to which she and the previous speaker referred, transparency in the negotiations. The House must bear in mind that there is not one text available. There are 42 texts. There are as many texts as there are governments sitting around the table. many of the governments do not intend to share those texts until the negotiations are complete. That is the way international negotiations are completed.

Our government has been unlike any government before in history in terms of its open consultation, open discussion, and the availability of our negotiating positions on the Internet where they have been fixed. There is recognition that areas such as services and investment, to which the member referred, are not available, but they will be available when they are ready. There are open discussions. Our committees are consulted and there is broad consultation.

The member's motion does not direct itself to the issue she has been discussing today. Her motion is in fact a constitutional amendment. The motion that the Bloc proposes today is that the House be required to debate an international agreement before it is ratified by the Government of Canada. This has never been the practice. It is not the practice of the country and it should not be introduced.

I suggest to the member that she respond to my question. Why would we introduce a profound constitutional change and an amendment in the way in which we proceed in international affairs under the guise of the transparency of this negotiation? We all agree on all the issues and that it is most important for all of us. We all intend to be engaged and have been engaged in a meaningful way.