House of Commons Hansard #174 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was pornography.

Topics

Interparliamentary DelegationsRoutine Proceedings

10 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Parrish Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34 I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the 13th report of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association, which represented Canada at the meeting of the subcommittee on future security and defence capabilities of the NATO parliamentary assembly held in Slovenia and Slovakia from March 5 to March 8, 2002.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the eighth report of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology entitled “A Plan to Modernize Canada's Competition Regime”. The report makes 29 recommendations which, if implemented, would ensure that Canada's business sector is productive, innovative and competitive in the new global economy.

I wish to thank the witnesses, members and committee staff for their contributions. A government response is requested pursuant to Standing Order 109.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the membership of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs be modified as follows:

Dale Johnston for Richard Harris

John Reynolds for Randy White

and that the following members be added to the list of associate members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs:

Richard Harris and Randy White

(Motion agreed to)

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 36 I have the honour to present to the House a petition signed by over 820 Canadians calling on the federal government to support my private member's Bill C-419 or to introduce other similar legislation.

Bill C-419 would give greater protection to our firefighters by amending five sections of the criminal code and by creating two new criminal offences. As first line defenders and public safety officers our firefighters deserve the greatest level of protection we can afford them under our laws.

PetitionsRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, Dana Fair was beaten to death by three men in Lloydminster. This was witnessed by several people in the city.

The undersigned petition that no bail be given to any accused murderers caught in the act of committing their crimes and only maximum sentences be given to those convicted under those circumstances. This is one in a series of petitions I have been presenting. I encourage the government to act on these petitions.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

The Speaker

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

10:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

moved:

That the government immediately introduce legislation to protect children from sexual predators including measures that raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, and measures that prohibit the creation or use of sexually explicit materials exploiting children or materials that appear to depict or describe children engaged in sexual activity.

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to rise today to speak to this most pressing of issues, the protection of Canadian children from sexual exploitation by adult predators.

Although I am honoured to be speaking to the motion, I am truly sad that it has to be so. It is no secret that Canada's low age of general sexual consent at 14, coupled with the government's failure to adequately protect children from sexual predators, has resulted in Canada potentially becoming a preferred destination for sexual predators to prey on innocent Canadian children.

The damage to children due to the proliferation of child pornography and the exploitation of young girls and boys through sexual abuse and prostitution has been incalculable. The need to protect innocent and vulnerable children from pimps and other sexual predators is a matter of highest priority.

The government now has a opportunity to send a direct and clear message to Canadians that it will no longer stand for the abuse of innocent children by sexual predators by voting in favour of our motion today.

Before I proceed with my comments, I want to make a couple of things abundantly clear. First, that the motion is not making criminals out of teens or those close in age who decide to engage in some kind of sexual activity. It is also not about lowering the age of consent in any of the cases where it is now 18. The current law governing the age of consent does not criminalize behaviour between teens who are close in age and we concur with this aspect of the current legislation.

We in the official opposition are calling on the government to raise the age of consent, which is set out in section 150.1 of the criminal code, from 14 to at least 16. There are many good arguments that it should actually be raised to the age of 18 across the board.

In addition, we are asking that the government strengthen the existing child pornography legislation by sending a clear message to Canadians that there is zero tolerance for sexual exploitation of children in our country. We are asking the government to place the protection of children above the rights of those who would exploit them through the creation of sexually explicit materials depicting children or materials that appear to depict or describe children engaged in sexual activity.

We on this side of the House echo the comments of the attorney general of Alberta who recently said:

Some argue that we must be careful not to restrict freedom of expression. I say that if there is any place that cries out for society to say no it is the area of child pornography.

We do not accept the concept that people should be free to defile children--either physically or in writing.

We do not accept the concept that there can be “artistic merit” in the victimization of children.

And we do not accept the concept that the intention of exciting or titillating a passion for that which is illegal, immoral, and in all fashion and form reprehensible to a civil society, is acceptable in any form. Even if it is based on the rather far fetched notion that the creators of such offensive material will not share it with others and will keep it only for themselves.

We agree with the attorney general.

Before I continue I want to take this opportunity to thank the member for Pickering--Ajax--Uxbridge for his excellent work and recent initiative in addressing the protection of children from sexual exploitation.

I also want to make special mention of the work of my hon. colleague, the member for Calgary Northeast, who unfortunately cannot be here today to speak to the motion. He has worked long and hard on trying to raise the age of sexual consent and should be commended for doing so.

One of the things I want to do this morning is to emphasize the size of the problem because most people do not realize the size of the problem we are addressing in the motion today. I want to attempt to give people some idea of the magnitude of this terrible scourge on our children. If people have not seen the pictures or the broken lives it is impossible to comprehend the awfulness of this repugnant blight on society.

Let me try to illustrate it with some facts. Approximately 7,000 people were registered as members of the Candyman e-group, including 4,000 living outside the United States. I would presume that some of those 4,000 would be in Canada. This is the fact that caused the launch of Operation Candyman.

On Monday, March 18 of this year, 89 people were arrested in 26 states, including 27 who were charged with molesting children, after a nationwide sweep called Operation Candyman.

This helps to show that the use of the Internet to sell and trade child pornography has grown sharply in recent years.

In 2001 the FBI's crimes against children unit opened 1,541 cases against people suspected of using the Internet to commit crimes involving child pornography or abuse, compared to 113 cases in 1996. In 1995 the FBI had only 20 employees devoted to cases involving Internet crimes against children, compared to about 150 agents now. U.S. law enforcement officials and experts on pedophilia generally agree that there is a link between child pornography and sexual abuse of children.

On the Canadian scene, the child pornography unit of the Toronto police department reports that out of every 17 people arrested for possession of child pornography, 8 of them are guilty of sexual abuse of children. They say that 8 out of 17 arrested with child pornography were child molesters and child abusers. That was right here in Canada.

U.S. Attorney General Ashcroft said “Operation Candyman demonstrates our commitment to protecting our nation's children from sexual predators”. Just what is it that demonstrates our government's commitment to protecting children?

Stephen Whitelaw, a former Glasgow university lecturer and chief executive of Buchanan International, a Scottish security software company, developed a program to trace, log and map the dark side of the worldwide web. They were able to produce a unique profile of the web in all of its inglorious forms. They were able to register in forensic detail about 40 broad categories of undesirable activity, some of which were fraud, anarchism, virus creation, violence promotion and pornography.

Mr. Whitelaw found that more than 20,000 new hosts for pornographic sites were being created daily. The average site contained just 43 images but some sites had more than 100,000 images.

I want to give a few statistics that come from the child pornography unit of the Toronto police. Two thousand cases of child abuse are reported annually in Toronto and of those under 14 years of age, 70% were sexually assaulted. One case of child porn being investigated has yielded 400,000 pornographic images of children. Those 400,000 images have to be catalogued one by one and then presented to the defence one by one. Just cataloguing these images freezes the entire department for five to six months. Four hundred other known individuals need investigation and 160 are known to need to be arrested but it cannot be done because of the backlog of this one case. They have confiscated 750,000 child porn pictures since January 1 of this year. That is one unit in our country.

In August 2001, the National Post reported an RCMP investigation called Project Snowball. Two thousand Canadians who subscribed to explicit child pornographic websites were under investigation by the RCMP.

Police sources said that Project Snowball had identified 406 suspects in British Columbia, 232 in Alberta, 52 in Saskatchewan, 82 in Manitoba, 946 in Ontario, 436 in Quebec, 61 in Nova Scotia, 35 in New Brunswick, 8 in Newfoundland, 6 in Prince Edward Island, 20 in Northwest Territories and 4 in Yukon.

RCMP Sergeant Paul Marsh said “The protection of our youth in Canada is one of the RCMP's top priorities. It is a serious problem in that our youth is the most vulnerable to people with criminal intent”.

I now want to spend some time talking about the damage sexual abuse causes to children. I want to share with the House some information that I received as a result of a request from Kathy Broady. Kathy is the clinical director of AbuseConsultants.com. She said:

Severe abuse leads to severe responses. Society can never ever underestimate the price children continue to pay for the rest of their lives after being victims of crimes like pedophilia, child pornography and prostitution.

What I am presenting is not a list of symptoms. This is a list that describes the daily existence of these children and adults. These are the facts of what their lives are like after being so severely abused. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine your life with a small handful of these complications everyday for a week...If only it was that easy for victims of severe sexual abuse. These issues are constant--daily, yearly, seemingly eternal--struggles for them.

Severe childhood sexual abuse literally steals a lifetime of productivity, happiness, fulfillment, and peace from its victims.

Children that have been sexually abused and sold into the sex slave industry experience the following negative impacts.

The list by category is long so I will only read the categories. From five to twelve items are listed under each category in the document. If members wish to view the document they can find it on the AbuseConsultants.com website. The categories are: fear, mistrust, ongoing violence and abuse, poor coping skills, self-destruction, suicide, addictions, mental health problems, no self-esteem, less education, destroyed careers, poor medical and therapeutic assistance, damaged relationships, sexual problems, lack of parenting skills, increased medical complications, detachment, poor self-care, mental torment, sleep complications and disorders, anger issues, and losses.

Under losses, she lists health, family, education, career, self-worth, years of time, personal integrity, financial independence, peace of mind, intellectual capability, spiritual security, emotional growth, the maximization of their potential, and the fulfillment of their dreams.

If we took the time to examine those problems we would understand the extreme damage this activity with our children brings about in their later life.

Let me read a part of a personal victim's statement that describes her ordeal in her own words. The statement reads:

I am doing this because of the importance of putting a face to all the victims of pornography. It is easy to forget that there are real children and adults behind the statistics and generic words that are used to describe the victims whose lives have been shattered by pornography.

I know this because when I was 4 years old until I was fifteen I was taken to people's houses as a child prostitute. Inside those homes I was shown newspaper type magazines filled with haunting pictures of children like me that looked drugged, dazed and lifeless. I still remember their faces today and wonder whatever became of them.

Pictures were also taken of me. I clearly remember standing cold and naked, exposed to all while someone would tell me how to pose. It was harder than the physical and sexual abuse because there wasn't any fighting or struggling to keep me distracted. I would try to go numb or disappear but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't. The pain that I felt and the shame was too strong for me to go numb. After it was over and I would go home I was always worried and scared where those pictures would wind up, and who would see me. I still have those same concerns at age thirty. Those pictures could be anywhere.

Today, I can't take a picture of my own children without feeling like I am doing something wrong. I cringe at the sight of someone approaching me at a gathering with a camera. If someone looks at me the wrong way or simply asks me to move my arm I instantly feel all the terrible feelings that I had back when I was a child. Nightmares and flashbacks still occupy my mind now 15 years later. I can feel as though it all happened again after having a night filled with nightmares. No matter how hard I try to get those experiences behind me they can come and take over my mind and make trying to enjoy anything in the present impossible.

There are a lot of things that go along with the picture-taking and posing. There is drug use so that a child is more cooperative and sexual abuse that can leave a child with emotional scars that may never heal. I have tried to look for more survivors of this abuse, and, to tell you the truth, they are hard to find.

It isn't that they don't exist. It is just that some have died, or are not mentally able to speak about their trauma, or sadly have turned to prostitution or drugs to hide from the pain. Just because they aren't able to talk about it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The problem is that it is such a horrible abuse that it destroys a person's life so strongly that it makes it almost impossible to talk about. The hardest part of having those experiences is having the knowledge that there are thousands of boys and girls who are now being robbed of the innocence and will walk around with the effects of their abuse for the rest of their lives.

That is a dramatic description from the life of one person. Let me read a brief excerpt from a mother and grandmother of children who were sexually abused. This is what she says:

What I can say without fear or favour is that our whole family has been systematically and wilfully torn apart and destroyed by these obscene perpetrator networks. In particular, by exposing my children and grandchildren to unspeakable abuses from early infancy, these criminal networks systematically and wilfully interfered with the normal and healthy development of their immature brains. In effect, as innocent infant-children they received a life sentence, without trial, without representation, and without parole.

Recent research has shown that this kind of abuse that we have been talking about actually impacts the development of a young child's brain. It is actually observable in physical form. These are the four abnormalities, as one researcher describes them, that are likely to be present in that person's brain: first, changes to the part of the brain that control emotions, usually affecting the left hemisphere of the brain and associated with more self-destructive behaviour and more aggression; second, deficient development of the left side of the brain, which may contribute to depression or impaired memory; third, impaired pathway integrating the two hemispheres, resulting in dramatic shifts in mood and personality, especially with boys who have suffered neglect and sexually abused girls; fourth, increased blood flow to the part of the brain that involves emotion, attention and the regulation of the limbic system, disrupting emotional balance.

In closing, I would like to urge the members of the House to set aside partisan politics and do what is right. The government now has the opportunity to send a direct and clear message to Canadians that it will no longer stand for the potential abuse of innocent 14 year old children by perverted 40 year olds who would take advantage of their innocence.

I would urge all hon. members of the House to be honest and ask themselves what kind of protection they want for their own children. Are we truly content with a law that allows our own 14 year olds to run away and have sex with a person of any age without being able to stop them?

As I mentioned at the outset, the motion is not about making criminals of those teens who are close in age who decide to engage in sexual activity. This is not the intent of the motion. The intent is to protect innocent children from exploitation by adult predators. I ask the hon. members across the way to listen to their own former Minister of Justice who, on October 3 of last year, told the justice committee:

...I think we will see that a consensus is emerging that with certain safeguards we should probably be moving the age of consent from 14 to 16.

That indeed is one of the intentions of the motion.

Finally, I ask all hon. members to listen to the public outcry begging for the gaping holes in the current child pornography legislation to be filled. Let us send a clear message to all Canadian families that the House will no longer stand for the sexual exploitation of our most precious resource, our children. I would urge all hon. members to vote in favour of the motion today.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to make some comments about age and then turn to a question. For young offenders the age is 18 years. In most provinces one has to be 16 to drive a vehicle. To gain employment and not violate labour laws, one has to be 16. Parents are required under the criminal code to provide the necessaries to children under the age of 16. The right to vote is given at 18. In a marital breakdown, the non-custodial parent is required to provide support to the child and it extends well beyond the age of 14.

I am curious. I would like to address this question to the hon. member. What would motivate a federal government to reduce the age of sexual consent to 14 and deprive parents of the ability to protect their children from sexual exploitation in view of all these other requirements that the government has seen fit, in its wisdom, to impose, such as minimum ages and so on? They are much higher than this one. Why would a government see the necessity to lower the age for sexual consent to what I think is the extraordinarily low age of 14?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of people who have their own agendas. We are aware of some organizations that wish to lower the age of consent to as low as eight. How can we explain something like that?

We can explain it by saying that people are somewhat selfish. They have their own motives and their own answers. Why parliament would lower it to the age of 14 is beyond me. Why we would not want to raise it to 16 or 18 is beyond me. In this day of seeing the damage from this new wave of pornography that is so readily available and so often involves our own children, I would hope that we would take the responsible course and raise the age.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member's speech. I have a question. I would like him to clarify a little more, because I am left confused about what his party's position is on this motion in relation to the age of consent. We know that the age of consent for many things has been 14 since about 1890, but for exploitative relationships, cases where there is prostitution or child pornography or an adult is in a situation of trust or authority with a child, and it seems to me that covers most of the kinds of things we would be concerned about, the age is in fact 18.

My question is this: Is he saying that if two 15 year olds have consensual sex that is going to be a criminal offence? That is what I would like him to clarify. Is that what he wants? Does he want to make those people criminals? Is that what he is after here?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, obviously the answer is no. If he had listened carefully, he would have heard me say that several times in my speech. The answer is absolutely no. We are after a change in the laws that would prevent adult exploitation of children.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to seek consent of the House to correct the motion I made earlier.

Notwithstanding the motion that I made earlier regarding membership in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, the part concerning Dale Johnston should read:

Dale Johnston for Cheryl Gallant.

The part concerning associate membership of the committee should read:

...the following members be added to the list of associate members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs:

Cheryl Gallant and Randy White.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the hon. member for Peterborough have the consent of the House to correct the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Does the House agree?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

10:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Amendment agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Northumberland Ontario

Liberal

Paul MacKlin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the Secretary of State for Children and Youth.

I am pleased to participate in this important debate. I welcome the opportunity to have this discussion to confirm the government's commitment to taking the necessary measures to safeguard our children. The government remains committed to strengthening the criminal law's protection of children from sexual exploitation and all forms of victimization.

Canadians agree that child pornography is one of the most horrible forms of child sexual exploitation. Parliament has ensured that Canada's laws against child pornography are among the toughest in the world. Our law is very clear in prohibiting the creation of child pornography. The criminal code prohibits the making, printing, publishing or possessing for the purpose of publication any child pornography. Our laws strike at the heart of the trade in child pornography. The criminal code prohibits the importing, distributing, selling or possessing for the purpose of distribution any child pornography.

Let us be clear: our criminal code prohibits the possession of child pornography. The supreme court upheld criminalizing possession. One of the reasons parliament criminalized is that we must reduce the market for child pornography and consequently reduce the abuse of children that child pornography often entails.

Our law defines child pornography quite broadly. It is defined as a photographic, film, video or other visual representation that shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of 18 years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity. It does not matter whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means. Child pornography can be a photograph, a movie or a computer file. Our law ensures that it is all illegal.

Our law is not restricted to defining child pornography as depicting explicit sexual activity, as is proposed in the motion before us today. The law prohibits any visual representation, the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction for a sexual purpose of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of 18 years. In addition, the criminal code states that child pornography includes any written or visual representation that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of 18 years. That would be an offence under the criminal code.

Our laws against child pornography are among the toughest in the world. The government is committed to being vigilant, both domestically and internationally. The nature of the computer networks and the child pornography rings through which this illicit material is traded crosses borders and requires international co-operation.

The G-8, for example, has consistently acknowledged the economic and social benefits arising from new technologies, but has also recognized that it must combat the use of such technologies for criminal purposes. Canada, along with its G-8 partners, has been active in countering the sexual exploitation of children on the Internet. Perhaps the most far-reaching international legislative initiative in this regard is the Council of Europe's cybercrime convention, which Canada signed in November 2001. The convention has now been signed by 33 countries, including all the members of the G-8 except Russia.

The cybercrime convention, which targets a broad range of computer related crime, addresses child pornography specifically in connection with computer systems and contains provisions to criminalize various aspects of the electronic production, possession and distribution of child pornography. The convention harmonizes laws to help shut down the international production and exchange of child pornography. We have not yet ratified the convention, but we can be proud that our existing law is already consistent with the child pornography provisions in the Council of Europe's cybercrime convention.

Our laws against child pornography are tough and have been upheld by the highest court in the land. The offence of possessing child pornography was challenged last year as being contrary to the freedom of expression and security of a person guaranteed by the charter.

On January 26 last year the Supreme Court of Canada upheld the constitutionality of the prohibition of the possession of child pornography. However the court decided that the guarantees protected by our constitution required the recognition of two exceptions where the prohibition's intrusion into free expression and privacy was most pronounced and its benefits most attenuated.

The first exception of excluded material consists of written materials or visual representations made and possessed by the accused for personal use. This exception refers to so-called works of imagination. We must keep in mind two things. First, there are no children involved in the production of these works. Second, although such works of the imagination can be possessed, they cannot be distributed, given away or traded in any manner.

The second exception consists of any visual recording made by the accused or in which the accused is shown provided that: the sexual activity is not unlawful; all parties consent to the making of the representation; and the representation is made exclusively for the person who made it or the person shown in it.

We must understand what this means as well. A person cannot have lawful sexual activity with children, so a person cannot create and possess images depicting such behaviour. The supreme court further stipulated that with respect to the narrow range of lawful sexual activity between 14 and 17 years of age, the individuals involved must consent to the visual recording and the resulting representations are excluded for their use. Although the individuals involved can possess the representations, they cannot give them away, trade them or distribute them.

The highest court in the land found a balance that was consistent with our charter of rights and freedoms. The supreme court upheld the law that parliament enacted. It is possible to amend the law but any changes have to be very carefully crafted to ensure that we prevent harm to children and also retain the constitutional protections that ensure we are free and democratic society.

The government has proposed amendments in Bill C-15A that succeed on both these fronts. Protecting children is a priority in Canada. We continue to fine tune our law to counter the new ways criminals exploit communications technologies to facilitate pedophile activities.

Bill C-15A will amend the criminal code to prohibit transmitting, making available, exporting and accessing child pornography. It will also prohibit possessing child pornography for the purpose of transmission, making available or exportation. These provisions will be particularly helpful in combating child pornography on computer systems, whether it is transmitted by e-mail or accessed through the Internet.

The passage of Bill C-15A should not be delayed any further. A commitment was made to speed the passage of these provisions when Bill C-15 was split. It is now time to honour that commitment. Bill C-15A will provide new ways to strangle the trade in child pornography. It will make our law better so that parliament can fulfill its commitment to protect children.

Clearly this government is dedicated to protecting children. We will take and make every effort to find the ways and means to deal with those who would take electronic technologies and attempt to advance them in a way that is inconsistent with our belief in the way our children should be protected.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Brian Fitzpatrick Canadian Alliance Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, the government's policy of protecting children with alleged tough legislation against sexual exploitation has a big hole in it. That is the defence of our artistic merit under the so-called charter of rights freedom of expression ambit.

There is no absolute right in this world. Rights always have to be balanced. When somebody exercises a right that imperils or seriously endangers the rights or the security of someone else, especially children, the law has to step in to protect those people. The government has failed to do that.

It has two clear ways of dealing with this matter and managing it. I will put both of these to the hon. member and I would like his response to them.

The first is to clearly define the limits of the defence of artistic merit and put some real meaning behind this thing rather than leaving it open-ended and leaving it to a judge, probably a Liberal-leaning judge, to interpret what is meant by this defence. Our children need something better than that and that is why we are here. We are here to make laws for this country and we seem to be reneging on our responsibility by not dealing with that matter.

The other option is to do what the fathers of the charter of rights intended; that the House would have an override when the public was crying for some action.

My interpretation of the Sharpe decision is that from coast to coast, and I will not use all the other coasts to which my friends across the way always like to refer, there is real anger at that decision. People feel that children are being left vulnerable and that the government is unwilling to act.

However Pierre Trudeau and the 10 premiers who created the charter of rights fully understood that the House, under some extraordinary circumstances, would override a Liberal-minded court that made decisions which flew in the face of what the public expected.

Why will the government not take emergency action to define clearly what is meant by artistic merit and remove it from the interpretation of Liberal-type judges or exercise the notwithstanding clause in the name of protecting our children against sexual exploitation?

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Paul MacKlin Liberal Northumberland, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raises questions that obviously make us reflect on where we are in our society and how we try to cope with the problems that society generates through its advances.

When we look at the issues of artistic merit, we also have to look at the areas of trying to balance the freedoms that are set out within our charter of rights and freedoms with the interests of society. One of the interests of society of course is to figure out ways to protect our children. It is very important that we continue to work with and develop ways and means of protecting our children over the course of time as the situation changes.

There is no question that the government believes that we are making advances in the area of child pornography and that we are diminishing its ability to flourish within this country. Through the transnational nature of the entities that are created, we are concerned that if we do not get Bill C-15A passed with the section dealing with Internet luring and the international transport and export of pornography we will fall behind.

We have been a leader and we wish to continue to be a leader in fighting pornography. I wish to encourage members of the opposition to make certain that they support Bill C-15A so that we can minimize any future transactions that may occur in the international scene of the Internet. We must take those steps now.

SupplyGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Western Arctic Northwest Territories

Liberal

Ethel Blondin-Andrew LiberalSecretary of State (Children and Youth)

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to join my colleagues in this debate today. We all share a concern for the protection of children and youth. I must reflect not only from a domestic perspective but also from an international one. Canada is not alone. Many countries are seized with the issue of commercial child sexual exploitation, pornography is an aspect of that.

I have had discussions with colleagues both internationally as well as domestically. We know that by making changes in legislation to protect the rights of children and youth as individuals, each and every aspect of proposed legislative amendments has to be carefully vetted. Due consideration must be given to how this will impact on existing legislation and the rights of individuals and how it is vetted against the constitutional rights of individuals. We have an obligation to do that as legislators. It is not an option. It is something that honours the rights of individuals.

We as a government have worked tirelessly to protect children from sexual exploitation. We recognize that children are vulnerable members of society and we have acted to ensure our children are strongly protected against sexual predators. This is normal and is something that all members of the House share in in terms of expressing how we feel about our children in Canada and around the world.

To protect children from sexual exploitation, parliament passed criminal code amendments on October 18, 2001, which included major provisions to better protect children from criminals who sought to sexually exploit them by using the Internet.

This legislation creates a new offence of luring which targets criminals who use the Internet to lure and exploit children for sexual purposes. This legislation makes it an offence to transmit, make available or export or intentionally access child pornography on the Internet.

The legislation allows judges to order the forfeiture of any instrument or equipment used in the commission of a child pornography offence. It enhances the ability of judges to keep sexual offenders away from children by making prohibition orders, long term offender designations and peace bonds available for luring and child pornography offences.

The legislation amends the child sex tourism law enacted in 1997 to simplify the process for prosecuting Canadians who commit sexual offences against children in other countries.

Since 1993 the government has introduced many changes to ensure children are protected from those who seek to sexually exploit them. Our actions include amendments to the criminal code to deal more effectively with high risk offenders, and we have had a longstanding debate on this. As members know, there is a national sex offender registry which will serve the betterment of all children in our country.

The government passed legislation to improve public safety through changes in the parole and correction system, including measures for easier detention of sex offenders in penitentiaries until the end of their sentences and measures to strengthen rehabilitation and treatment programs for sex offenders.

We have amended the criminal code to toughen laws on child prostitution and child sex tourism. The criminal code has been amended to ensure that peace bonds are effective in keeping abusers away from women and children. Legislation has been passed to make criminal records of pardoned sex offenders available for background checks. A national information system on child sex offenders has been established which will enable employers and organizations to determine if a job applicant has a criminal record for sexual offences before allowing the applicant to work with children.

The RCMP is on track with its improvements to the Canadian Police Information Centre, or CPIC, and will have by November 2002 a distinct national sex offender category in CPIC to help police protect the public against sex offenders. This builds on the government's September 2001 announcement of a $2 million project to create the special sex offender category on CPIC.

I will speak about two international summits or congresses we have had which illustrate that Canada is not alone. They illustrate that this is a global problem for the various countries trying to provide protection for children.

In 1996 we had the first world congress in Stockholm. Canada joined with other nations, the United Nations, regional organizations and non-governmental organizations worldwide to commit to a global partnership against the commercial sexual exploitation of children. We gathered to mobilize the international community to arrive at a common platform and launch a concerted and co-ordinated commitment to address the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

Our commitment was clear and strong: Commercial sexual exploitation of children is wrong. It is an offence and will not be tolerated. Commercial sexual exploitation of children knows no borders or boundaries. So too our commitment is without borders or boundaries.

Since the first world congress many efforts have been made around the world in terms of improved legislation, law enforcement, prevention programs, recovery and reintegration programs, research, exchange of information and anti-trafficking measures. The insidious thing about the sexual exploitation of children, commercial and otherwise, is that once we resolve the problems of child prostitution and child abuse and deal with issues on the Internet we have the emergence of another issue: the trafficking of children and women. It is insidious that the power of this negative force is so pervasive and permeating that it eludes governments around the world.

We must band together with other countries to work for our children and young people. However the growing involvement of organized crime, increased trafficking across borders and within countries, and the proliferation of child pornography via the Internet have created new challenges to the eradication of commercial sexual exploitation of children and youth.

Technology is growing at such a fast pace that governments around the world are scrambling to catch up with the issue. Technology is being used not for the betterment of humanity but against the most vulnerable in our society: our children and youth.

Since Stockholm the Government of Canada has been working hard with non-governmental organizations, its provincial and territorial counterparts and other countries to stem and combat the sexual abuse of children at home and abroad. We are proud to have played an active role internationally in the negotiation of a number of new instruments to address the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

In the last five years negotiations have been concluded on: ILO Convention No. 182 on the worst forms of child labour; the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography; the Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime and its Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children; and the Convention on Cybercrime by the Council of Europe.

These instruments elaborate on our fundamental rights as set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We encourage all states to consider signing and ratifying or acceding to these important new instruments as soon as possible.

As members well know, a few weeks from now we will have the United Nations Special Session on Children. I sincerely hope states will take the opportunity to move forward the international agenda for the protection of children especially when it comes to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. This is so important.

We had a second meeting in Yokohama last December. After all the discussions and resolutions the document that came out was in the right place. Canada was a strong leader at the meeting. Canadians believe in protecting the rights of children. We must lead by example. We have therefore taken a certain number of measures as I have indicated.

It will cost money. Children are a priority of our National Strategy on Community Safety and Crime Prevention which has been allocated $145 million over four years in addition to its current funding of $32 million per year. We have also expended moneys through CIDA with our partners around the world to do likewise for children abroad who have less than we do.

This is a complicated issue. There are a number of issues which should be dealt with individually and not by an omnibus bill in which everything is rolled together and each amendment is do or die. We must look at each component because we are dealing with the rights of individuals. We are dealing with the constitution and the charter whether we like it or not. The notwithstanding clause is not our own little instrument to whip out whenever we wish. We must be careful about that. We must be circumspect when dealing with the rights of children and all citizens.

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10:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the concern of the hon. secretary of state for children and youth. It is a big issue.

I remind all members that our motion is not a statement of law. It is not an omnibus bill. It suggests there are a number of other issues the government needs to look at besides those addressed in Bill C-15A. As the hon. secretary of state mentioned, the law already says one cannot exploit a person under the age of 18 for sexual purposes. Now the government is writing a law in Bill C-15A that says one cannot lure a person under the age of 18 for the purpose of sex.

I have two questions for the hon. minister. First, does she believe a 40 year old man living in the United States could communicate with a 14 year old girl in Canada, come to Canada, invite the 14 year old girl to his hotel room, have sex and not be exploitative or have lured?

Second, does the minister believe pornographic material such as that in the case of John Robin Sharpe would be kept private and used only by the creator? Does the minister believe that nonsense?

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10:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ethel Blondin-Andrew Liberal Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, I have many personal beliefs. Unfortunately when trying to apply universal protection to the rights of all individuals, especially children and youth across the country, there is a very small area for my own beliefs. I believe we must provide protection for young people. However my opinion about Mr. Sharpe and whether in an isolated incident something should or should not happen is all academic to me.

We must be unceasing in our attempts to protect children. I know my hon. colleague feels the same way. We must continue what we have been doing, especially with respect to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Canada cannot stand alone in this. There must be uniformity across the country and across the world for the protection of children. When we undertake something federally we do not do it on our own. Enforcement is generally carried out at the provincial level.

My hon. colleague wants me to speak to the age of consent. There are many issues I could raise with regard to that but I will avoid it. However if there are incidents of abuse of children they must be examined carefully. As hon. members will notice, everyone is concerned about the rights of the child and protecting children. It is not about other things. We cannot make good legislation or provide good amendments for existing legislation by using isolated incidents. That is not the way to make proper and universally applied laws to protect children.