Debates of March 30th, 2004

The Budget

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the comments of my friend across the way. I am having a problem with the definition. I am not sure what she means by social economy. I understand the intent of some of the objectives that she discussed but I think that if there is an intent, there should be some measure. If the object is to provide educational services, the results should be measured to ensure that taxpayers' dollars are well spent.

The member made reference time and again to this notion of social economy. I simply do not understand what she means by it. I wonder if she could define that term. It seems that she has been given a particular responsibility for that area in government. I wonder if she could define her job description and give us some indication of the budget that goes with it, if any.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

If the hon. member had been listening, Mr. Speaker, I spoke about the budget and the way the budget is divided. It is $162 million, the breakdown of which is in the budget. I spoke about it in my speech. If the hon. member had been listening intently, he would have understood. I also gave examples of social entrepreneurship from one end of the country to the other. I will repeat the examples that I used.

The examples were the Cirque du Soleil and the furniture recycling workshop in my riding.

There is co-op housing, also part of social entrepreneurship, but the best definition was given to me by someone whom I consider an expert in this area, in my definition, and that is Professor Greg MacLeod, from Halifax. He calls social entrepreneurship “community-based businesses”. And they are businesses. That is why $162 million was given to Industry Canada: because the economic and social economy is part of what we are trying to do as a government. We are trying to create jobs. We are trying to create jobs, but in a new way, in a new fashion, using a partnership of the private sector and the public sector, meaning the three levels of government, and non-governmental agencies. We want to engage Canadian citizens who want to improve their community in various aspects by getting involved in the social entrepreneurship movement.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was delighted by the member's focus on the social economy. I had no difficulty understanding what she was talking about. On this social entrepreneurship, the way our society has developed has at last come together in a way such that it can be dealt with in a policy fashion. I think these community based businesses are a good way of doing it.

In my riding there is a group called COIN, which is a network. They train. For example, they train people to fix computers and then sell the used computers. They train people to use computers. They set up community access sites for the Internet and put our libraries and our townships on the Internet and so on.

The interesting thing is that this is business, community business, but while it is being done it is fulfilling a social need. I would be grateful if the member would comment further on this.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I was referring to when I used some examples. The member has an example in his riding.

I am sure that every single member of Parliament has an example in his or her own riding although they may not know it. That was the idea when the Prime Minister gave me the mandate as parliamentary secretary with the special emphasis on social economy, which is a horizontal role, by the way, and does not belong to one ministry.

This is exactly what we want to do. We want to promote the community based businesses across the country. We want to create social cohesion by allowing people to improve their own situation by creating jobs for themselves or for other disadvantaged groups in society and, through that process, also leaving us with a better community.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as always, it is a pleasure to speak to an important issue like the budget. The way I have sliced it up today, I would like to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. I think that covers the speech in its entirety.

There are some good things. I have put out a press release mentioning what I thought were some good things in the budget. It was a very short press release. It did not take me a lot of time. I did not waste a lot of ink, but there were a couple of things that I thought were good in their intention. We will have to see if they are going to turn out in the long run, but let us say that at first blush there are some good ideas.

There was some tax relief for military personnel overseas. Pretty well everyone thought that was a good idea, although the caveat is that it applies only to those who are in Afghanistan and Haiti. Such tax relief was not extended to the folks in Bosnia, for example, with whom I spent a week last fall and who were quick to point out that there have been 25 guys killed in Bosnia. So I do not know how many guys have to get killed before it can be called dangerous. They pointed out and rightfully so, I think, that if tax relief is good for military personnel it is good for everyone, but in this case it is an extra appreciation for the stress and time away from family and so on for military personnel. Perhaps it should be extended to those who are overseas for extended periods of time; I am talking about the whole works, not just those in selected theatres.

The idea of an independent centre for first nations governance was a small thing, but it does seem to me that if we are going ask aboriginal people to take on more of their own governance issues, establishing a centre for training administrators and personnel and so on is a good idea. Again, though, it is one of those things. It is a good idea and it is proper, but whether this government is the one to teach them good governance is quite questionable.

I am not sure on exactly who is going to put together the formula on this and who the government is going to call; I assume that it is not going to appoint an ex-cabinet minister to set this thing up. If it is truly independent and truly about good governance, then it is a step in the right direction and I would like to support it. I think it may be a good idea and that is why I put it in the “good” category.

Finally there is the idea of the education bonds for the future. Education is a very important item for all families, for all Canadians and for our nation. I want to believe that this is a good idea. It is of course for 16 or 18 years down the road; that is when we really benefit from those kind of bonds. It is hard to be against that. It is nice to be able to believe or hope that 10, 15 or 20 years from now this will actually help the people it is intended to help. However, like so many promises, we are not sure if these good concepts are actually going to flesh themselves out and be good in the long run.

I do have a longer list of things that I put under the “bad”, just before I get to the ugly stuff. The bad stuff is of course no general tax relief. There is this misconception on the Liberal side that tax relief is passé, that people are content with their level of taxation, that what they see in their lives is good enough and so on.

That is not what I am hearing. I hear from business folks, homeowners, young entrepreneurs and people who are starting out. They are saying the idea that the government is giving them all the tax relief they are ever going to get is not just good enough. They feel overtaxed. They are sure they can handle their money better than the government can and that if it were left in their pockets it would be more productive than a dollar sent to Ottawa to be circled around amongst friends and given back in programs they have never asked for in a region of the country they have never seen before. They are quite sure about that and I agree with them.

There is also no significant reduction in EI premiums. Again, I do not know how many times the EI auditor has to say that the surplus is too large, the government is using it as a revenue producing tool, it is not right and it is an inappropriate use of the taxation system. EI should be helping people with their employment issues. It should not be used as a general revenue scheme for the federal government. It is an abuse of the system.

If the government wants to raise revenue it should be up front about it. It should not go through the back door and make employers and employees pay through the nose in high EI premiums, and for the foreseeable future because there is no plan to reduce them.

There is also no broad based educational help. I put this under the bad side because I really do think education has to be a priority. I would just point out that these are the kinds of things the government has promised students over the last few budgets since 1999. Every year we get a budget where students say, “Hooray, finally some money”. However, here is what has happened. Since 1998, the government promised to help 12,000 graduates per year but has been helping a total of 2,000. It promised to spend $100 million annually on grants for needy students but has fallen short of that by 50%. It promised interest relief to student loan holders but none of the targets in that department have been met. Last year's average student debt was $21,000 and recipients received an average subsidy of $509 in interest relief.

If we are going to make education a priority, there is no use building the whole program around the idea of a $500 bond for needy children that they can cash 18 years from now when they go to university. That is not going to help the students of today pay for their student debt or handle their student debt problems.

Last under the bad column, although I hate to call any tax reduction bad, is this $1 reduction in the aviation tax for every domestic flight. Is it somehow going to just charge up the industry and bring this nation closer together because when we fly from Vancouver to Toronto the taxes are going to be reduced by $1? That ought to spark the airline industry. That ought to bring Air Canada out of the doldrums.

That is the kind of thing that is almost like the national dream, when we think of it. Let us just think about it: every Canadian can save $1 on a trans-Canada flight. It just makes me want to get on an airplane right now and go back to Chilliwack.

It is just a farce to reduce the taxes by $1. Jeepers, I feel good about that. I am sure the airline industry just feels motivated to get up this morning and, as we used to say in the logging business, “Give 'r s'noose”.

Finally, here are some ugly things from the budget. There is an overall budget increase of 7.6%. I do not know what it is with Liberal finance ministers. The current Prime Minister and previous finance ministers were in the same bailiwick in that they increased spending by over 40% over the last seven years. The projected increase is 12.7% over the next two years. They have never yet met their targets on spending. They always overspend. We are looking at 7.6% this year, with probably a 7.5% to 8% spending increase next year, and 8% the next year following that. We can just count on it, folks: under the Liberals we are going to get an 8% increase in spending every year. This is while the economy over the last 10 years has gone through unprecedented growth worldwide.

What is it with these guys that they cannot understand we have to hold the line on spending before we have hopes of managing money well, offering long term tax relief, and letting Canadian businesses compete in a global economy? We cannot keep spending 8% more per year and think we are going to get ourselves out of the debt hole.

Also, speaking of debt, there is no legislated debt repayment plan, something whereby we can count on, every year, paying down a certain portion of the debt. There is no capital tax elimination. Let us get rid of that tax altogether.

There is another $270 million in venture capital that they want to throw into the mix. It sounds good, of course, as more venture capital is great for our country, but it is a government directed thing and we have no details on how that is going to be handled.

It is an ugly thing to believe that the government is going to be able to direct $270 million. Actually, that $270 million is almost familiar when I think of it. The last time the Liberals got their hands on $270 million, $100 million of it went right to Liberal-friendly firms for work that was never done. So as for another $270 million, maybe it will be spent well but I do not believe it. I am from Missouri, the show me state, and I have not seen from these Liberals anything that has shown me they understand the budgetary priorities of Canadians from coast to coast. They certainly do not understand my riding. They do not understand the priorities of people back in Chilliwack and Fraser Canyon.

I look forward to bringing forward a budget--and within the next year, I hope--with a new government and with new priorities that reflect the priorities of Canadians from coast to coast.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to my friend with great interest. I also listened to his leader, who in his speech said that this new party is the party from Sir John A. Macdonald to Brian Mulroney. Let us just examine that. When Brian Mulroney left office, he left a country that was on the verge of bankruptcy. This country had an annual deficit of $42 billion. Does the member wants to talk about ugly? That was real ugly.

This government brought in seven consecutive balanced budgets. I am wondering if my friend across the way calls seven consecutive balanced budgets ugly or good or beautiful. I call them beautiful. Ugly is the government of Brian Mulroney, a $42 billion deficit, and the leader of that party saying it is the party of Brian Mulroney.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not hard to balance the budget when money is gouged out of the health care system that goes to the provinces. It is not hard to balance the budget when advanced education transfers and Canada health and social transfers are slashed. It is not hard to gouge extra billions of dollars out of projected military spending and give at least some of it to Liberal friends.

It is not hard to balance the budget if Liberal priorities are wrong and taxation continues. In this case, spending is going up 7.6% again next year and 12.7% is projected--we know it will be more than that--over the next two years.

The Liberals happened to hit the 10 years of the longest sustained period of economic growth in the world--and this is no credit to the Liberals, this is a worldwide phenomena--in the last century. They happened to take government just when that long period of economic growth took place.

I am happy the budget is balanced; however, I am not particularly pleased with how they have done it. I believe that they could have had a good budget if they thought about the basics they needed to put in place in order to have long term, sustainable growth through the ups and downs and vagaries of international politics and terrorism, and whatever it might be.

It is not done by increasing the spending by the amount they are doing without also giving some long term tax relief to businesses, individuals, homemakers and others who are trying to do their part to get the economy going and to make it sustainable in the long run. That is part and parcel of doing it.

It is not done by devising programs that are subject to every kind of government waste and that road to hell of good intentions, and expect that we are going to get the economy rolling in the long term. That is not good. Balancing it on the backs of the health care system was not a good idea either.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was surprised that my colleague suggested that there were no tax cuts in this budget. I know he has read the document from cover to cover, but there are several pages at the back dealing with tax cuts, whether they be social or involve children or businesses.

He knows that we are going into the fifth year of a $100 billion tax cut. By next year, the year that we are facing in this budget, family tax will be lowered 21%. For families with children, tax will be lowered by 27%. A family with two children earning around $40,000 will pay no federal tax at all, so the personal side has been cut.

I know he is concerned about business taxes. The R and D tax environment in Canada is now equal or better than in the United States. We are going to the fifth year of tax cuts. How is it that he can say there were no tax cuts in this budget?

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will give the chairman of the procedure and House affairs committee a personal example. I am, as he knows, the vice-chairman of the very same committee that he is chairman. I found out when I was elected there that I actually get a stipend for being the vice-chairman of this committee. I receive $367 a month to be a vice-chairman of the committee. I got my first cheque in the mail. It was delivered to my office the other day. It was $367 gross. My take home pay was $165.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You are lucky.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

It was $165 and I am not complaining.

I am just pointing out that when more than 50% of people's cheques goes for taxes, is it any wonder people say it is pretty hard to be motivated to expand their businesses, to take a risk, to step out and risk their venture capital when, even if they make it, they are paying 50% of the money in taxes?

I want to point out that some of the taxes, like a tax on capital, for example, is such a bad and regressive tax that I do not know why the government did not address that up front. Eliminate it and allow people to invest. I am not against writing off computers at a faster rate. I am happy about that and I will give the member that, but this other stuff is regressive. It continues year in and year out, and never changes for businesses trying to get ahead.

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in response to the budget speech.

I guess the bottom line for me is that program spending jumps over 7.5% from last year to a record of over $143 billion. It jumps another 12.7% in the next two years, up another $41 billion over the last seven years.

We are seeing a distinct lack of fiscal discipline coming from the government. We have an EI surplus continuing to feed general revenues. That EI surplus will swell by another $4.3 billion in the next year. We will end up with over $48 billion EI surplus and no premium relief in sight for workers or for employers.

My other major observations on the budget relate to the fact that there is essentially nothing in the budget for non-urban Canada. The budget not only snubs non-urban Canada, it snubs our Department of National Defence and many of our workers who work in that area.

I have already talked about the EI surplus and how that is continuing to be abused. There is a premium freeze in place and no relief in sight. The premiums being collected are much higher than what is required to sustain the program. Therefore, our workers are paying much more than they need to in order to keep the government afloat in terms of the kind of revenues that it is now used to spending.

Canadians are not getting the level of service from their federal government that is appropriate for the level of taxation that is being dedicated to the federal government.

We saw a small amount of relief on the student front. We saw some government moneys dedicated to a learning bond, which is a longer term savings program.

What we did not see is what the priority should be for students and that is a focus on reducing tuition and increasing the ability to access the student loan program. The combination of those two things would do exactly what is right. It would give immediate relief to students so they can carry on with their studies.

There was no delivery on the fuel tax rebate that the Prime Minister has been touting. It will not take very long before our municipal politicians will become quite cynical. They are not used to the kind of treatment that the government has meted out to the provinces and is now planning on meting out to the mayors and councils at the municipal level.

The government will play favourites. We already have a great deal of suspicion that the so-called cities agenda will completely leave out all the smaller communities, the smaller towns, the larger towns and the smaller cities. The so-called cities agenda of the government is going to translate into many municipalities and other municipal levels of government completely left off the agenda. That is certainly where all the signposts are headed right now.

We have had some discussion about the lack of tax relief in the budget. The only people who think there was tax relief in the budget are sitting on the other side of the House. They are on the government side. That is a quick snap when we look at the budget.

I would like to look at the budget in a little more depth and where we sit in non-urban Canada in terms of this budget. For example, in my part of the world, British Columbia is the major softwood producer in the nation with approximately 50% of softwood contribution. We had a government softwood package announced 18 months ago or longer. As of a month ago we had zero dollar delivery in the Province of British Columbia, whereas we have seen that there has been program delivery on a fairly steady basis, for example, in the Province of Quebec because the government was playing politics.

Liberals thought that the best way to play politics in the Province of Quebec was to continue to make announcements month by month and they thought the best way to play politics with the softwood funding in the Province of British Columbia was to throw it all into the hopper just before the election.

We know that between that strategy and the fact that this whole exercise was put into the domain of western economic diversification instead of HRDC, that we then had to go out and hire a whole bunch of new people to run this program. Then we had a series of turf wars as a consequence of that within the bureaucracy. We have had second guessing.

I have had initiatives put into the government that were rejected by one level of the bureaucracy and overridden by another level. These proposals have gone back and forth as many as three times that I am aware of. It is very frustrating at the community level.

Meanwhile, we are marching ahead and we are almost at the government's fiscal year end. That also happens to be the provincial government's fiscal year end. This has complicated the whole equation because some of these are dependent on federal-provincial cooperation as well as private sector financing at times. This has become very problematical.

The frustrations at the rural community level with the softwood package are immense. We have other frustrations as well which are either budget related or government related. Rural coastal British Columbia is so immensely impacted by the downturn in the forest sector, the fishing sector and other sectors. I do not know how to be kind in trying to describe what has happened to rural coastal British Columbia compared to 10 years ago when this government came into power. What I do know is the one very strong light at the end of the tunnel is the proposal that west coast oil and gas be a natural development.

That requires the political will from the federal arena and the provincial arena to take us in that direction. The only strong political will that is coming from the government in terms of west coast oil and gas is coming from the Minister of the Environment and it is negative political will. It has put us at least 12 months behind where we should be in terms of that whole prospect. The government needs to get it and it needs to get it soon.

My time is winding down. There are other issues I would like to speak to, but I will conclude by saying that 10 minutes is hardly enough time to point out the problems associated with the budget and the government's performance in the area that I represent.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, we have to be clear. The budget does not try to be all things to all people. It simply tries to be real things to real people.

My colleague said that we are not doing anything with the cities. He said that we are not promoting the cities agenda, that we are allowing transport in the cities to be crippled. This morning there was a joint $1 billion announcement by the city of Toronto, the province of Ontario and the Government of Canada. Mayor Miller, who in my vocabulary is a left-leaning mayor, sang nothing but praise for the initiative that the Prime Minister has taken. The Prime Minister has insight and vision. He has said that we are here to deliver sustainable development, for the Toronto Transit Commission to start rebuilding to get back on its feet, to move people, to get people away from using their cars.

Did the hon. member have an opportunity to read the clippings today to see what the mayor said? How does that jibe with what the member is saying? He is saying that we forgot the mayors and the cities, yet the mayor of one of the major cities in Canada, if not the largest city, said that we are doing good things. Is the member watching a different TV station or reading different news from what I am reading?

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this is typical, coming from the government side. It is called divide and conquer. It is called be thankful for what we receive because we have been favoured by the government.

The government collects $7 billion in federal fuel taxes on an annual basis and gives back less than 10% of that into transportation infrastructure. The provinces spend 100% to 110%. The U.S. federal treasury spends 100%. The Canadian federal government sees fit to use those revenues for anything.

Then the government makes an announcement that it will spend a small part, and $1 billion is a lot of money, but it is still only one-seventh of what the government is collecting from our largest city, which represents approximately that percentage of the population. It is getting what it is due, but everybody else is not, so I am not sure why I should be so excited about it.

Government members are talking out of both sides of their mouths. It is time to deliver. Will the Liberals continue to collect those fuel taxes or will they turn them back to the municipal levels of government, through the provinces, so that the money can go back into infrastructure?

Today's announcement is typical of the federal government. It wants to keep its fingerprints all over the announcement rather than doing what is right and giving it to the level of government that can spend it efficiently.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before resuming debate , it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Yorkton—Melville, Firearms Program; the hon. member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, Canadian Forces.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to share my time with my colleague from Winnipeg South Centre. It is with great pleasure that I speak to the budget.

A nation as blessed as ours should always aim higher and reach farther. Canada is in a position to launch a new decade of achievement. We have begun the journey with our new government's first full budget.

The budget lays the foundation for a better future for all Canadians. The government has some very specific goals to create an even greater country, one that will give more Canadians the opportunity to succeed, to enlarge their ambitions and to pursue their dreams.

Let us be clear. This budget does not try to be all things to all people. Rather, it puts real people, people just like us, at the heart of what we are trying to do. We have a responsibility to make sure that our children and grandchildren lead even better lives in an even better land. This is a goal we have set for ourselves. A nation as great as ours should be able to reach it. In this budget we are striving to do so.

The Prime Minister came into office with three clear objectives: to strengthen Canada's social foundations; to build a truly 21st century economy where there is opportunity for all; and to restore Canada's place in the world as one of pride and influence. This budget puts us on the path toward these objectives, without throwing fiscal caution to the wind, without engaging in a pre-election spending spree, without playing fast and loose with the economic process Canadians have worked so hard to achieve.

The budget makes important investments in such key areas as health care, communities and learning. It institutes investment and reforms that will put our health system on a truly sustainable footing, to ensure that Canada's communities provide a quality of life second to none, and to put knowledge in the hands of all Canadians, no matter the geography or income, in order to put them on the road to individual progress.

Budget 2004 also comes with a financial responsibility. This year marks Canada's seventh consecutive balanced budget, something that has not been achieved since Confederation. We are balancing the books and better controlling government spending. We are keeping our debt burden on a steady downward track, while strengthening financial management and operational integrity within the government.

Included in this plan is a new system through a new cabinet committee to examine on a regular ongoing basis expenditures in every government department. The committee is setting stringent standards that every department will have to meet and is asking tough questions that every department will have to answer.

The budget highlights include $1.25 billion for research and innovation, including efforts to bring Canada's research discoveries to the marketplace. This money, some $250 million of which will go to bring sustainable transportation innovation to the marketplace, is money well spent. As well it addresses an issue close to my heart.

Under the climate change plan for Canada, we are aiming to reduce transportation emissions by 21 megatonnes of Canada's total 240 megatonne reduction target. It is an ambitious goal and to meet it we must take an imaginative approach. That is exactly what we are doing.

The Government of Canada is investing to increase the production and use of alternative fuels, to increase vehicle fuel efficiency, to improve passenger transportation, and to improve the efficiency of freight transportation.

Under Transport Canada's urban transportation showcase program, we are investing in some innovative ideas to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from urban transportation. These range from hydrogen powered hybrid buses, to an Internet based ride matching service, to a bikeway and bike lockers. They are just a few examples.

Under the motor vehicle fuel efficiency initiative we are encouraging manufacturers to introduce more fuel efficient vehicles in the Canadian market. We have targeted a 25% improvement which we hope that industry will comply with on a voluntary basis. By 2010 this could account for one-quarter of the emissions reductions from all of the transport related measures that have been identified so far in the government's climate change plans. If a voluntary agreement with manufacturers is not achievable, the government has legislation on the books which it could enact in support of its goals.

Other expenditures in the budget include $665 million in new money, plus $400 million transferred from Health Canada to improve Canada's readiness to deal with public health emergencies. There is increased weekly student loan limits and the introduction of a new learning bond to help low income families save for post-secondary education.

Budget 2004 includes $270 million for new investments in venture capital financing. There are further tax incentives for small business.

There is another $250 million for Canada's peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan and the ongoing international efforts to prevent terrorism. There is another $50 million for our peacekeeping participation in Haiti.

There is $650 million to address security priorities such as intelligence, border protection, marine and cyber security, and enhanced coordination of systems, information, threat assessments and emergency response.

There is an acceleration of infrastructure funding for municipalities. There is $4 billion for cleaning up contaminated sites. There is $15 million to help establish pilot union-based training centres to aid in developing workplace skills for the future.

The budget also provides an additional $30 million for employment assistance programming for the disabled and new disability tax deductions to reduce barriers to education and employment.

It provides for the appointment of professionally accredited comptrollers to sign off on all new spending initiatives in every government department. There is the bolstering of the government's internal audit function. There is the establishment of an expenditure review committee which will, among other things, identify within four years savings of at least $3 billion annually for ongoing investments in the priorities of Canadians.

As an extra cushion against unforeseen economic circumstances, another $1 billion will be added to our $3 billion contingency reserve fund.

Also included in the budget is a commitment of $15 million over two years to start the Canada corps. This new initiative is one that will enable young people to make a personal commitment to international aid and provide sustainable development for building nations. It is my intention to hold community meetings in my riding to explore the direction that this new initiative will take.

This budget makes the initial payments we can afford to make now. In future budgets and future years we will build on the steps taken today. With optimism, pride and cooperation, all of us can succeed like never before.

I am proud to be part of this government that has yet again put forth a budget that balances the need for support of our social programs along with the fiscal responsibility that has been a keystone of this government's tenure. This is a budget that I believe most thinking Canadians will see as a good budget and one that I would be happy to defend in any election that may come about in the future.

[James Rajotte, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite mentioned climate change during his speech.

He knows that in the budget the government has committed to sell its Petro-Canada shares and put the money into a foundation. The Auditor General has criticized the foundations very severely in the past because she has not been able to audit the foundations.

Does the member think this is a good idea? Does he not think we should be putting the money toward lowering taxes or debt reduction, or putting it into an area where the Auditor General can actually audit it?

I would like him to comment further on the climate change plan. The Minister of the Environment basically admitted yesterday that the government has spent upwards of $3 billion and our emissions are going up. The government signed the Kyoto accord in 1997 and ratified it last year. The program has been a failure. About $3 billion has been spent and there is another $1 billion in the budget and our emissions are going up. We are not addressing the problem.

Many companies are concerned about the Kyoto implementation. They would like to know whether they will get credit for the action they took from 1997 to 2004 under the implementation plan. The latest response I received from the Minister of Industry was that he did not know and that the government was still negotiating that. We are now getting to the point where we have to meet our targets. Does the member not agree that the companies should get credit for the early action they took from 1997 on?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raises a few good points. I would like to advise him of a couple of things that I have done under my portfolio of responsibilities, and that is transportation with a special emphasis on the environment.

For the first time we have sat down with environmental groups. For the first time we have sat down with car manufacturers. We have asked them where they would like us to go. Is it with incentives or new initiatives? We have asked them to tell us where they see us coming along. We sat down with them many times in the past, but for the first time we sat down and put the two things together: transportation and the environment.

The environment groups have told us that they need initiatives, that they need us to think outside the box. When we talked to the industry, they also told us that they needed initiatives and that they needed us to think outside the box.

One environmental group, the Sierra Club, asked why sales people were not given bonuses for promoting hybrid cars, for promoting fuel efficient cars. If a salesman knows what he can sell, if a salesman knows what it is all about, he can lead clients to the right place and they can buy the right thing.

We need to think outside the box. We need to move forward to ensure that the initiatives, which we talk about, are addressed.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague's remarks. I noticed that, first, he did not answer the question by my colleague from Edmonton or even make an attempt to answer it.

However, second, he did talk about thinking outside of the box. Therefore, I will pose a question that might at first blush appear to be outside of the box. Has the member has taken note of a survey that was conducted by The Hill Times newspaper in Ottawa. In that survey the hon. member, who just spoke, was awarded the distinction of being the laziest member of Parliament. I wonder if he would think a little outside of the box--

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I am having grave difficulty with the direction of the question, given that I fail to make any relevancy with the debate at hand. I will leave the matter where it is, without any further intervention on either side on this question. I will proceed with resumption of debate, with the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My colleague said that I was voted the laziest. I challenge him to come to Scarborough—Agincourt, and after it is over--

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Respectfully to the members in the House, that would not be a point of order, but certainly I think that just gives voice to the fact that this is a debate which is really outside the realm of the debate presently occupying the House, and that is the debate on the budget.

I just want to remind colleagues that given the importance of the subject matter and given the limited amount of time left in the debate today, which could affect people on the very side of the House, from that same party, who would like to have the opportunity to speak on this important matter, I suggest we get on with the business of the day. I remind members that given the proximity of members and microphones being open, to please be judicious.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak in the budget debate. I rise as the member for Winnipeg South Centre, as a Manitoban and certainly as a westerner.

In 1870 Manitoba became the first western province to join the Dominion of Canada. Shortly thereafter, British Columbia joined Canada, thus establishing Canada as one unified link between two great oceans. The Canadian government has a long history of demonstrating its ambition and commitment to expand westward to develop and dynamic idea we call Canada.

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to engage you in a short history lesson. Sir Clifford Sifton, once a member of the Manitoba legislative assembly, moved to Ottawa in 1896 where he served as minister of the interior and superintendent general of Indian affairs with the Liberal government, under the leadership of Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

Becoming a dedicated Manitoban in his youth, Mr. Sifton was a formidable advocate of western expansion, believing that political, social and economic involvement of the western provinces was central to the prosperity of Canada as a whole.

He envisioned a western Canada that was industrious and agrarian. He established a vigorous immigration policy in which he claimed:

--a stalwart peasant in a sheepskin coat, born on the soil, whose forefathers had been farmers for ten generations, with a stout wife, and a half-dozen children, is good quality.

Times have changed but the spirit of Clifford Sifton survives. Federal initiatives, including the building of a national transcontinental railway, the founding of the Northwest Mounted Police and the constitutional equality of western provinces have done much to join the many parts of Canada and create a cohesive whole with which Canadians are free to share and enjoy the multitude of cultures, values, traditions and customs.

Western Canada has grown into a successful and continually flourishing region, in large part due to the early policies of the federal government. Winnipeg, for example, experienced a major expansion as emerging railway passages allowed travel to, from and through the city during the late 19th century.

Like many growing and dynamic cities, Winnipeg has faced many challenges and many cycles of development, and continues to do so. However, as I have said in the House before, Winnipeg is once again on the cusp of a major revitalization and budget 2004 is integral in supporting this. Federal policies continue to do much to make this happen.

The budget is allowing municipalities to recover 100% of the GST as of February 1, 2004. Western Canadian cities and municipalities will receive roughly $173.5 million within the first year alone. This new deal will effectively increase the financial resources with which Canadian municipalities can address their infrastructure priorities and other pressing projects.

As well, individual Canadians will benefit from this rebate since more resources will be available for police, water, transit and other vital city services. Coupled with the many infrastructure initiatives previously announced and the five year acceleration of the $1 billion committed last year, there is a significant new beginning and a significant catalyst for change.

Indeed, the mayor of Winnipeg has commented that budget 2004 includes the kinds of things “we were looking for.” He continued, “There was a significant payment on the new deal and a significant impact on the infrastructure coming out of this budget”.

As well, cities, as major centres for social, civic and economic activity, must function smoothly and accommodate the needs and priorities of their populations. In my city, as in other western communities, the urban aboriginal strategy is a very important initiative. I was pleased to see a 100% increase in the budget for the strategy to $50 million. It provides the necessary framework in which cities and aboriginal groups can work together to create adequate and sufficient conditions in which to live, work and study. The urban aboriginal strategy in Winnipeg, for example, has devised new models of how governments and communities work together and within themselves to support housing, inner city schools and youth, employment and transitional services.

In addition to addressing issues of growing communities and evolving municipalities, budget 2004 has made evident the Government of Canada's pledge to enhance the national health care system, both in terms of patient care and public health and medical science and research.

Sir Clifford Sifton likely could not imagine that, in addition to being known for its vast prairies, lush farms and rolling hills, western Canada, notably Saskatchewan, would emerge as the birthplace of universal health care.

This contribution to the Canadian identity and system of values is cherished and enhanced by the federal government. Like Canadian municipalities, Canada's health care system must remain flexible and well stocked with appropriate funding that will cover the proverbial slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in matters concerning disease, sickness and medicine. The additional $2 billion for provinces and territories will mean an extra $598 million in health funding for western Canada.

It is important that we note the Prime Minister's remarks in Winnipeg this past week when he said that there would be more money for health care, but that accomplishing our goals in health care would take transformational change, with an enduring plan and a sustainable solution. Canadians want their tax dollars committed to a quality accessible health care system. In order to manage the new and growing stresses on our public health systems and to implement a national immunization strategy, western provinces will receive $119 million of the $400 million allocated.

The budget transfers $400 million from Health Canada and allocates an additional $165 million over the two years to assist in creating the new public health agency. The National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg is expected to be an integral part of this new agency.

While the federal government recognizes its responsibility to contribute to medical research for the well-being of its own and the international communities, there also exists ongoing interest in supporting non-medical research in such fields as social sciences, the humanities, natural sciences and engineering. As a result, funding for the three federal granting councils has increased, in which the four western provinces will receive nearly $340 million.

I also want to mention that Winnipeg is very much the centre of activity for persons with disabilities. The funding of $30 million to support employment assistance programming delivered by the provinces and territories is a most important first step and is celebrated very much across the country.

Manitoba is the home of many fine post-secondary institutions. Not only do these institutions provide quality programming, they provide opportunity through access programs and special initiatives as well. The budget will increase opportunities for young people in Manitoba and beyond: increased grants on RESPs; new grants for children in low income families; and skill development for employees in the workplace. The aboriginal human resource strategy will make a difference.

We have often heard the quote by the American poet Ralph Waldo Emerson as saying that the meaning of success is, “to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition”. Budget 2004 is not the end of the process. It is the down payment on future activity. This marks only the beginning of a long journey, not unlike the settlers who originally established their homes in western Canada, toward embracing and enhancing the Canadian identity.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of comments. It was great to hear a rather artistic portrayal of the early years in Canada's history but I would like to bring my colleague a little closer to what is really happening with the budget.

She mentioned the 100% increase in the urban aboriginal strategy, from $25 million to $50 million, which certainly was much needed. However I wonder how much more could have been done for urban aboriginals, as well as other people throughout Canada, whether it was the need for affordable housing, had we also had the $100 million that was wasted in the scandal that took place.

I would ask the member to put those two figures together, the $100 million wasted in the sponsorship scandal compared to praising themselves for putting another $25 million into an urban aboriginal strategy. Something is wrong with the government's set of priorities and when Liberals feel they need to be cheerleaders for themselves.

Would my colleague also comment on how it is seen as an enhancement of the health care system when the federal government went from providing the provinces with 50% of the cost of health care services to providing 16% of the cost of the services? Does the member, yes or no, support for profit health service providers?