House of Commons Hansard #184 of the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was information.

Topics

The House resumed from November 20 consideration of Bill C-27, An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations, as reported (with amendment) from the committee, and of the motions in Group No. 1.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

There are five minutes left for questions and comments for the hon. member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing. The hon. member for Winnipeg North.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I have a question in regard to the whole issue of aboriginal discussions. We have seen a number of bills that have been brought into the chamber related to that particular issue and we have consistently told the government that there needs to be a lot more consultation prior to introduction of legislation.

To what degree does the member feel that, prior to the bill actually being drafted, there was adequate consultation done on behalf of the government?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is evident there has not been enough consultation done on this legislation or any legislation for that matter that the government has introduced that would impact first nations.

We believe there are already sufficient reporting processes in place, talking about Bill C-27, and funding agreements could be modified to address any worst case scenarios that arise. The government should have drawn up Bill C-27, as the member says, with full consultation with first nations, which would have made the bill more complete and legitimate than it is. It should have consulted, reflected on the advice of the Auditor General and kept the pressing needs of Canada's first nations communities in mind as it determined its legislative priorities. That would have served all involved much better.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, does the member see problems ahead for the tribal councils and other national aboriginal organizations with the funding cuts if Bill C-27 gets passed, and the kinds of supports offered to tribal councils, in particular, and first nations governments in terms of reporting?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know my colleague from Nanaimo—Cowichan is a very hard worker and understands the first nations issues.

If the bill does pass, there will be a major impact on our first nations with those cuts. It will impact on the ability of first nations to comply with the legislation that the government is putting forward.

I just received a copy of a newsletter from one of my first nations indicating that “The Resound is now going into its 11th year of production. Our paper is sent to citizens of our community living away from home, as well as our local residents. We have grown support for our paper today, and our paper enjoys 90% approval rating from our citizens when it comes to receiving timely information from the administration and council. We are a very transparent and accountable community. This is something Minister Duncan will be happy to hear”.

They do not support Bill C-27. This is from Chief Shining Turtle. I know the minister is very well aware of Chief Shining Turtle.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I will remind the member not to use proper names of our colleagues. Even when quoting, members are still not allowed to do that.

The hon. member for Newton—North Delta.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her very thoughtful speech on this legislation that talks a lot about accountability, a topic my friends across the aisle do not know too much about.

As the member travels around her province and meets with many people from the first nations communities, what kind of concerns is she hearing?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, the concerns I hear are not about the fact that the members are not getting information about the financials. They are saying that they need affordable housing, that they need their water issues addressed, that they need their education issues addressed, which is important, and that they want consultation from the Conservative government when it comes to legislation that would impact on their community. They do not want MRP. I know the minister has received over 14,700 emails from Chief Shining Turtle on the issue of MRP. I can tell members that first nations are very passionate about being able to govern their own communities.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:05 a.m.

Simcoe—Grey Ontario

Conservative

Kellie Leitch ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and to the Minister of Labour

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-27 would strengthen transparency and accountability by requiring that the audited consolidated financial statements and schedules of remuneration and expenses of a first nation be shared with the members of each first nation community, as well as the general public.

I know the committee made amendments to the bill, which helped to clarify this point. However, I feel it is important to discuss the motivations behind the specific reference to band entities in Bill C-27.

The consolidated financial statements of a first nation include the financial statements of the entity that, according to generally accepted accounting principles, are required to be consolidated with the first nation and to be presented as a single economic entity. It is, therefore, necessary to ensure clarity around what constitutes an entity for the purposes of this act. “Entity”, for the purposes of this bill, is defined as a corporation or partnership, a joint venture or any other unincorporated association or organization. As an example, a band-owned business would be considered an entity under the proposed act.

Members of first nations are ultimately the owners of any businesses owned by their band and, as a result, should have a right to know what the values and activities of those businesses are. Although some first nations may be reluctant to provide the full picture of their financial results for competitive reasons, it is important for the users of financial statements, especially first nations members, to see summary statements that capture the range of activities of their government.

Bill C-27 would require that an aggregate summary of the values and activities of the businesses that are consolidated into the financial statements of the first nations be published. This does not mean, however, that each individual business owned by the band would need to be publishing its own detailed set of financial statements. Instead, it is only the consolidated financial statements of the first nation to which the bill would apply. Any information concerning businesses would be highly aggregated and, in most cases, should not reveal any proprietary information.

AFN regional chief, Jody Wilson-Raybould, raised concerns about the inclusion of band entities in Bill C-27. She said during her appearance at the committee that was studying this bill:

...while public sector accounting standards do deal with government business enterprises, Bill C-27 seems to go further by adding definitions of “consolidated financial statements” and “entity”, as well as its own interpretation of what it means for an entity to be controlled by a first nations government under subclause 2(2). It is not clear what the intention is here. Why not just make the public sector accounting standards apply? We would like clarity, and we need to ensure that this bill does not inappropriately modify the rules that currently apply to other governments in Canada with respect to government business enterprises.

Once again, I know that the committee made amendments to the bill that address this point and improve the language. However, I want to be clear and bring to the attention of the House that the bill does not intend to seek to put into place the same rules that apply to businesses owned by other governments in Canada. These rules are developed not by the government but by the Public Sector Accounting Board of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants, which are referred to in the bill.

The new language used to define “consolidated financial statements” reads as follows:

“consolidated financial statements” means the financial statements of a First Nation—prepared in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles—in which the assets, liabilities, equity, income, expenses and cash flows of the First Nation and of those entities that are required by those principles to be included are presented as those of a single economic entity, as if the First Nation were a government reporting on its financial information.

This definition includes a specific reference to the fact that the preparation of financial statements is to be done, not in accordance with the rules established by the government but by generally accepted accounting principles. These principles include the public sector accounting standards demanded by Ms. Wilson-Raybould. This would ensure that the same standards that apply to businesses owned by other governments in Canada would apply to first nations governments in precisely the same way. Furthermore, this definition also makes it clear that first nations are to be treated as governments in the manner in which their financial information is presented.

The intention of this bill has always been to put into legislation the same practices with respect to the treatment of band entities that are currently in place in the funding agreements. It is important for the users of financial statements, especially first nations members as owners of those businesses but other users as well, to see summary statements that capture the activities of their government.

While we would encourage first nations to provide as much detail as possible to their memberships about the specifics of band-owned entities, the overall objective of this bill does not require it. The financial information for those entities that are considered to be part of the first nations overall economic activities would be aggregated. We believe this will be enough, albeit a minimum.

Bill C-27 may be seen by many progressive first nations as an opportunity to put into place or expand upon their own practices that aim to enhance the overall accountability of their government. In this way, the bill would serve as a catalyst for change in many communities which would lead to greater confidence in many first nations governments.

The challenge has been to find language that balances both the need for precision in the legislative drafting with accounting concepts that are both complex and constantly evolving. I congratulate the committee on finding solutions that skilfully strike a balance.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to my colleague's speech and I note that one issue has not been addressed on the other side of this House. How can they be so sure that there is a problem? From the outset, they have taken a pejorative view of the whole matter. In my riding, the first nations make a huge effort to be transparent and accountable to their members.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, I think we all know that there are many examples of first nations that are only meeting these basic transparency requirements and expectations of a government but actually exceeding them. We should applaud those first nations for doing so.

However, the movement forward with Bill C-27 is about the governments. We want to ensure that governments are fair and transparent with the individuals they deal with, just like every other government, including the Government of Canada. We expect the same of provincial governments.

As I said before, there are many examples of first nations that not only meet these basic requirements but actually exceed them. We should applaud those first nations and encourage them to all meet that same bar.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the member somewhat makes the argument that many first nations today are exceeding the requirements that are written within the legislation.

The question I have for her is in regard to what the government is actually doing. On the one hand, it seems to recognize that there is some leadership within the first nations that more than exceeds the expectations and yet on the surface it would appear as if the government has not in good faith negotiated or sat down with the first nations leadership prior to introducing the legislation.

It is important for us to note that the leaders of our first nations communities can more than adequately deal with this issue. It is a question of the government having the trust and faith, and sitting down with that first nations leadership and working with them to have better legislation.

Why did the government, prior to the drafting of this bill, not sit down with our first nations leaders and work with them?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows that the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development has spent countless hours meeting and speaking with individuals who are part of first nations governments.

In addition to that, the committee has reviewed at length what the language should be in this bill and has come forward with this, striking a balance, as I mentioned in my speech. We all need to know that the committee took thoughtful time and came up with excellent language that is acceptable.

The transparency provided in Bill C-27 would stop any speculation or dispel any rumours about the salaries around first nations leaders and allow Canadians to see the reality of how well first nations governments are being funded. In addition, this would ensure that the same standards that apply to businesses owned by their governments in Canada would also apply to first nations governments in precisely the same way.

This is good legislation. I look forward to the opposition supporting it.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear the parliamentary secretary talk about first nations governments and yet the Conservative government does not actually treat them as governments.

The member also mentioned that there is this accountability in the relationship with provinces and yet I know that the Conservative federal government does not require that the provinces, for example, report accurately on how much private health care dollars are funded through the public health care system.

The Canadian Bar Association wrote a letter to the minister saying that this legislation fails to recognize the unique constitutional arrangements between first nations and the federal government and does little to move away from the paternalism which has historically defined this relationship.

I wonder if the member could comment on the fact that there is no recognition of that nation-to-nation status in this legislation.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

Mr. Speaker, let us be very clear about jurisdiction. Health care dollars in this country are provided to the provinces, which make decisions with respect to how they deal with those dollars.

This government has put in place an escalator, in fact, 6%, year-over-year, in order to make sure health care dollars are made available to Canadians. I encourage the member opposite to look at those jurisdictional issues so she is clear with respect to how health care dollars are allocated in this country.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-27 raises a number of issues, of course. As I mentioned in my earlier question, with this bill, the government took for granted many negative and disparaging opinions about first nations in this country. Right from the start, the Conservatives noted that there was a problem with the first nations, and they imposed the view that there was indeed a problem.

There are first nations communities in my riding. For example, there is the Kitigan Zibi reserve, where the chief and the band council make an enormous effort to be accountable and transparent with their members. In order to do so, they publish documentation on their financial statements and their accounts, they use the Internet and they reply to the many questions from their members and the band councillors at public assemblies.

Beginning by identifying a problem, without even doing any research, is inherently problematic. It seems to me that, if you are going to discuss a problem, there must first be evidence of a problem.

With this in mind, I am going to give the House some statistics. First of all, is there a problem with the salaries of chiefs and band councillors? The answer is no. The average annual salary of a chief is $60,000, while that of a councillor is $31,000. Furthermore, 50% of chiefs earn less than $60,000 per year, and only 5% of them earn more than $100,000 per year. So how can anyone talk about abuse?

In comparison, an elected member of Parliament is paid $160,000 per year. Only 5% of first nations officials earn more than $100,000 a year, while every one of the elected members in the House of Commons earns more than $100,000 per year. So where is the problem?

Of course, it all depends on how we see things. Is this a government in the process of negotiating with another government, a nation—whether Quebec or Canada—negotiating with another nation, or is this the daddy of Canada that is continuing with its fault-finding, paternalistic relationship with the first nations? I think that this is the attitude that is the real basis for Bill C-27.

Here are some other statistics: a recent regional survey on the health of first nations members showed that only 51% of first nations families had Internet access at home. Making it mandatory to publish information on a website or on the Internet does not make sense considering that the bill primarily concerns first nations members. The figure drops to 36% for families whose income is lower than $25,000.

In Nova Scotia, the public can consult summaries of ministers' expenditures, for example, at the parliamentary library. The government of the Northwest Territories publishes only ministers' travel-related expenditures. The various levels of government are in fact less accountable than the first nations are. It is a double standard. They are expected to be more accountable than we are.

It should be pointed out that the current Conservative government is probably the least transparent government in Canada's history, in terms of layoffs in the public service, in terms of its spending, in terms of the F-35s and a number of other things. The first nations cannot be asked to be more accountable than we are.

We are opposed to this bill primarily for one basic reason: there has been absolutely no consultation with the first nations on this bill. I myself have done my work and asked the first nations in my riding if they were consulted with regard to Bill C-27; the answer was a resounding no.

How can we expect to have a good relationship with the first nations in this country if we do not even make the effort to convene an assembly of first nations or even to have a telephone conversation with the band councils about Bill C-27?

There are a number of reasons why I am personally opposed to this bill. For instance, it imposes tougher standards than those imposed on the elected representatives in other levels of government. I have already mentioned this. There is also the minister's power to withhold the payment of any sum due to a first nation or to terminate any agreement respecting any grant or contribution payable to the first nation, in the event of failure to comply with any obligation. This is an excessively harsh penalty, especially when we know that many first nations depend on these transfers for their health and well-being. In some cases, these transfers are a matter of life and death. We absolutely must take an approach that is smarter than simply punishing first nations if they do not comply with this new bill.

We want to see the government working in co-operation with first nations on improving their governance. That is true. Instead, we have noted that the Conservatives have eliminated funding for institutions supporting governance, such as the First Nations Statistical Institute and the National Centre for First Nations Governance. Once again, it is completely wrong, if not hypocritical, to expect supposedly better governance by the first nations while cutting budgets for institutions that support the development of governing institutions.

We also believe that changes to the way in which audited financial statements are presented to the first nations do not require legislation. Such changes can be included in the requirements for the funding agreements that the minister had each first nation sign. Understanding the context would allow for a more personal approach to negotiating and co-operating with each of the first nations involved.

I am also concerned, as my party is, that this bill overlaps and breaches other legislation, including the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act, both of which, let us remember, exist to protect Canadians.

The legislative summary provided by the Library of Parliament describes the legal requirements to which band councils are already subject. The Conservatives have not proven to us that these legal requirements are problematic: there has been no conversation and no facts have been presented. Why do these requirements cause a problem? I have come full circle in my speech: we have to identify and prove that there is a problem before we can find a solution to it.

I must say that my position—my party's position—is supported by a number of first nations groups. The Assembly of First Nations, for instance, has profound concerns about this bill.

The Association of Iroquois and Allied Indians issued a press release on November 24.

I am pleased, therefore, to rise in this House to oppose this bill together with the first nations in my riding.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I think there has been a common theme regarding Bill C-27, at least from our perspective in the Liberal Party. The Liberal Party believes that it is absolutely critical that we work with the first nation leadership.

Within that first nation leadership there is a great deal of expertise and experience for dealing with accountability and transparency. We need to enable that leadership to contribute to making good legislation. Without doing that, without having the proper consultation and without enabling the first nation leadership to participation wholly in that process, we would be selling it short.

Would the member agree that the government is making a mistake because of the manner in which it introduced the bill in the first place?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I tend to agree with the premise of my hon. colleague's question on where the expertise is.

In a former career in academia, I worked on getting others to recognize that knowledge was not found solely in academia but also in communities all over this country.

The reality is that if the government took the time to open its ears, it would realize that first nations in this country actually have something to teach us about governance and transparency. Just because their transparency does not look like ours, it does not mean they are not transparent.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I very much appreciated my hon. colleague's speech, which touched on one aspect that I think is very important. Being a former employee of Statistics Canada, he talked about the elimination of the First Nations Statistical Institute. I find this particularly relevant because it shows that the government does not understand that, to govern well, it must know the populations it governs well.

Statistical institutes like Statistics Canada and the First Nations Statistical Institute play a role in providing information to the government.

I wonder if my colleague from Pontiac sees a certain pattern or modus operandi in the Conservative government's desire to reduce access to information about the people it must govern.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question. Absolutely, and I would need an hour to describe in detail all of the cuts this government has made to science and research. Take the Statistics Canada form, for instance, which was essential and was also related to this question of having more information about first nations populations.

The fact is that first nations want information about their own populations. They want to know what is going on with Canada's aboriginal people. This information could be extremely useful when it comes to their own governance and it could be useful to scientists across the country. It is appalling that this government spends so much time attacking science.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Mr. Speaker, I sit on the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Witnesses told us about complaints that led to the introduction of this kind of bill by the government.

However, considering the number of first nations people in Canada there were relatively few complaints, and these were made by Canadian taxpayer associations and other conservative groups that like to criticize outrageous salaries. However, the truth of the matter is that a chief earns an average of $60,000 and a councillor earns about $31,000.

We should be more worried about the transparency of the government, with its glasses of orange juice, than that of first nations. Can my colleague talk more about this?

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Pontiac has 30 seconds left.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, since this government came to power, ministerial expenses have spiralled out of control. Members of government love their privileges.

I am prepared to compare the privileges of ministers to those of first nations chiefs any time. The chiefs have no privileges.

I would like to remind members that five per cent of first nations chiefs earn just over $100,000, whereas all MPs make over $100,000. That does not make sense.

First Nations Financial Transparency ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

My hon. friend from Halifax was actually standing. Therefore, pursuant to Standing Order 62, I move:

That the member be now heard.