Debates of Dec. 7th, 2023

Opposition Motion—Carbon Tax on Farmers, First Nations and Families

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member talks about facts. Is he willing to stand in this House and say that based on Canada's proportion of greenhouse gases in comparison to the United States, China, India and many other countries in this world, our weather systems in Canada are due to our responsibilities in the global climate change scenario?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this shows how unserious that party is. If every country that had lower emissions than China and the United States said they did not have a responsibility on climate change, there would be no action on it. Countries like Ukraine have stepped up, and they have very small carbon footprints. What did the Conservative Party do? It voted against Ukraine.

The price on pollution is important and we need to move forward on it. It works and it puts more money back into the pockets of Canadians.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to share my time today with my colleague from Elgin—Middlesex—London.

Our Conservative motion to axe the carbon tax, as we have heard so much from the Liberal government about today, is an opportunity for all members of Parliament, even those in the Liberal backbenches, including the my colleague from Winnipeg North, to stand up for their constituents. I know it will take courage, but I urge every one of them to do the right thing.

Like all MPs in this House, I am getting emails and calls from moms and dads across Canada who are struggling to pay their bills and put food on their tables. I am hearing from seniors who worked decades to save for retirement, only to see inflation eradicate their income and financial security.

As someone who represents a large rural constituency, I know how the carbon tax disproportionately impacts the people who call Westman home. If we can pass this motion, it will send a strong signal to the Prime Minister that his government needs to get serious about the cost of living crisis in Canada. If the Liberals have not yet figured it out, the Conservative team will never back down from its mission to axe the carbon tax once and for all, no matter how long it takes. We will stand up for the families, seniors, farmers and indigenous Canadians who are being crushed by the drastic cost of living.

Nothing was more insulting to the millions of Canadians trying to heat their homes this winter than when the Prime Minister decided to temporarily pause his carbon tax on only 3% of households. It is no wonder that provincial governments are up in arms. Even the NDP government in Manitoba is explicitly asking the Prime Minister to exempt home heating from his carbon tax. As for the top-up for rural Canadians, it is not even enough money to pay for the gas to take their kids to hockey practice on the weekend.

Our common-sense Conservative motion today is simple. It is not a gimmick and there are no temporary measures. It is time to axe the inflationary carbon tax for good and bring home lower prices.

Every single member of Parliament knows constituents are hurting. It does not matter if people live in rural Newfoundland or North Bay, Ontario, inflation and rising Liberal taxes are taking their toll. People are struggling to stay afloat, and the carbon tax is a giant anvil dragging them down.

We found out this week, as an example, that more than 50,000 Manitobans are now regularly using a food bank, the highest number ever recorded in the province, and while we can get bogged down in statistics, we must never forget that we are talking about people. These are seniors, students, children and indigenous Canadians who cannot afford to go the grocery store. When people do have money in their pockets, they are decreasing the quantity and sometimes the quality of the food they are buying.

This is not normal and it weighs heavily on the minds of moms and dads trying to pack their kids’ school lunch boxes. It weighs heavily on the senior whose fixed income is not keeping up with the rate of inflation. It weighs heavily on the young person who is trying desperately to pay for their education or save for a home but can barely afford their daily necessities.

I know first-hand the challenges food banks are having. I have visited the Samaritan House in Brandon and it is struggling to keep up with demand. I cannot say enough about the good work that Barbara McNish and all the volunteers do for those in need, but we as policy-makers cannot just turn a blind eye to these startling numbers.

As another example, I know the food bank in Killarney, Manitoba, is facing challenges. It recently contacted my office, as it now needs to hire a manager to run the operation as the demand on volunteers is too great. Under the Liberal government, small rural communities need to hire a manager to run a food bank. In all my years of living in Westman, I never thought in a million years that a very progressive community like Killarney would ever need to hire staff to run its food bank. It is a testament to the struggles that many are facing and it is undeniably heartbreaking.

If this is not a warning sign of how bad things have gotten out there, I do not know what is. What will it take to finally wake the Prime Minister up and get him to change direction? The rising costs of food cannot be divorced from the Liberal government's tax-and-spend policies. The carbon tax is driving up the cost of everything. It is contributing to the costs of growing our food.

Let this sink in for a moment. While the cost of groceries has never been higher, Liberals have shown no compassion for those who cannot afford to put food on the table. The carbon tax is being applied all along the entire food supply system. It gets passed down until every Canadian gets stuck with the bill. It is no wonder the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that families are seeing a net loss under this measure.

Families and seniors are getting crushed, and it is time for action. They are tired of Liberal gaslighting about how much better off they are under the carbon tax rebate scheme. The good people of Westman are not falling for the Liberals' talking points; at the end of the day, they do not have more money in their wallets.

Just this morning, Canada's Food Price Report stated that the average family of four is expected to spend $16,297.20 on food in 2024. As we have heard my colleagues say in this House before, that is seven hundred and some dollars more than what they had to spend last year.

I want to finish my talk today by just saying that this is an outlandish tax that the government is trying to place on everyone in Canada and their cost of living today. The government could have passed Bill C-234, which was a bill to take the carbon tax off heating barns and greenhouses in Canada and drying grain. The cost of food is directly proportional to the cost of the inputs that it takes to grow these products. We are talking about greenhouse produce that is extremely healthy and is exported all over the world, particularly to our neighbours in the United States to the south of us.

Maybe some of my colleagues are not aware of what really happens when farmers are drying grain. It is not just a luxury; it is an absolute necessity, because farmers need to be able to store that crop when they take it off. If they do not, that grain could spoil, costing the producers millions of dollars across the country. It could be billions. This is something that is very much a necessity.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

I simply want to say that the interpreter is indicating for the third time that there is a telephone vibrating next to the microphone and that it is a problem.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

Let us make sure the phone is not vibrating. Is there no phone there anywhere?

I thank the member for his intervention.

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I was just saying that, with respect to the cost of drying this grain, the government is basically saying that it will take the risk of forcing farmers to, in some cases, not be able to afford to store their grain properly. That would lead to great devastation in regard to our ability to be a reliable nation in our export markets, as well as putting some of the best food in the world on the table.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will ask my colleague the same question I asked the leader of the official opposition earlier.

There were all sorts of food drives over the weekend. I met with organizations in my riding, very dedicated people, food banks, families, people involved in housing as well, who build social housing. They talked to me and what they want are massive investments to build social housing for families, for women who are victims of domestic abuse and for single mothers.

Again, no one talked to me about the carbon tax and the related rising costs in Quebec. What they need is housing. No one talked to me about the carbon tax. The carbon tax does not apply in Quebec.

What is it going to take for Conservatives to understand that this does not apply in Quebec? What would my colleague say to the woman who says we need investments in social housing?

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if he does not think that the carbon tax impacts him in Quebec, then he has not been listening to my colleagues in the Conservative Party or many of the people in his home province. Obviously, attacks placed anywhere in Canada affect the food prices in our whole nation. That is a big part of the problem that the Bloc has not recognized.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change and to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, affordability is clearly a key concern. Keeping that in mind and having heard what the member opposite had to say, I wonder how he can fix everything that he has said and square that with the following fact: According to University of Calgary economists, if the carbon tax were axed tomorrow, the people who would actually benefit the most are people who earn $250,000 or more. More to the point, 94% of people who earn $50,000 or less receive more through carbon pricing rebates than they pay in carbon pricing.

How is it that the Conservative Party is supporting giving a benefit to people who earn $250,000 or more? Are they the ones who are having the greatest affordability challenges?

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I really heard the enthusiasm of the colleague from Halifax sitting behind the member, who just had his carbon tax cut by the Prime Minister, starting in the new year.

The member's question is relevant, but it is interesting to see how the Liberals have changed their tune; it used to be that everybody was getting back more than they paid. Then it went to 80%. Let us face it: They would not be getting anything back if it were not for the pressure the Conservatives put on them to have a rebate on the carbon tax in the first place.

The difficulty with this whole process is that it is not true. The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself said that it costs the average family more than $1,000 more than they are getting back in the rebate. Some of the points that came out this morning in the food report showed that, in Ontario alone, there is a $2,600 cost, and $800 does not square that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us talk about who is changing their tune. This member ran on a platform putting a price on carbon. Today, here he is saying that we should get rid of the carbon tax. The Conservatives ran on a platform to remove the GST on all home heating, something the NDP just brought forward. What did they do? They voted against it.

My colleague before me just talked about how eight out of 10 families will get a rebate that is larger than what they will pay in carbon tax. In fact, if someone earns $250,000 or more, then they will not. They will pay more.

The bottom line is that this is a diversion today. The Conservatives keep bringing this motion back. This is the 11th opposition day we have spent on it. It is a diversion from the fact that, as we know, the Conservatives are really fighting for those who earn over $250,000. They are not fighting for the eight in 10 families who are going to come out ahead. That is the truth.

My colleague ran on a platform to put a price on carbon and to remove the GST on home heating. Could he say why he keeps voting against that?

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the only ones running here are the New Democrats on Vancouver Island, who are running for their seats.

I just explained to the member from the island, my hon. colleague, about the Parliamentary Budget Officer's findings. There is $1,000 more in costs. If one only counts the price in gasoline and heating fuels in one's diagnosis of this whole process, then one will leave out all the costs of the redistribution of products across Canada.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to speak to our opposition day motion. I want to start off with some basic facts, so I will read into the record this very important piece of information. This is the type of stuff we are actually discussing today:

Between April 1, 2022, and March 31, 2023, over 800,000 people in Ontario alone accessed a food bank. In total, there were 5.9 million visits to a food bank in this time period. Feed Ontario reported that “if the 800,822 people who visited Ontario’s food banks between April 1, 2022, and March 31, 2023, became their own municipality, it would be the third largest city in the province ahead of Mississauga.”

This tells us we have a problem, yet we are back to this debate. As the member from the NDP stated, Conservatives are bringing up this motion for the 11th time. We are trying to bring some common sense and understand why over 800,000 people in Ontario alone are using a food bank.

Just this week, at the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, we heard it is forecasted that a food bank in Kelowna, B.C., is expecting its growth to be 100% in the next year. In addition, “More than one in six visitors say they are employed, which is an 82 percent increase over 2016-17 and a 37 percent increase over the previous year.” Now it is forecasted that, for 2024, there will be a hundred per cent increase in the use of food banks.

Why is this happening? It is very simple. It is because the cost of living is skyrocketing. Canadian mortgages have doubled, the costs of rents are increasing faster than the increase in wages and affordability is just absolutely out of control. We are in a broken economy right now.

We can try to paint a flowery picture, as we have heard from many parties here, and specifically the government's side. We can paint a pretty picture of all they have done. They can talk all they want about the Canada child tax benefit, refunds from the carbon tax and $10-a-day child care, but none of these policies are working to date.

This is why I am bringing this forward. We can talk about the Canada child tax benefit that was reformed in 2016, but we have to take into consideration what people received back in 2016, 2017 and 2018. Yes, I recognize there was an escalator to that, but the cost of living has continued to increase. Therefore, at the end of the day, Canadians are actually finding that they have less money in their pockets because of the cost of living. The more one spends, the more taxes the government is bringing in. This is the bottom line, and that is why it is so important that we axe the tax for farmers, families and first nations. It is desperately needed.

I am from the incredible riding of Elgin—Middlesex—London, where some of our key industry is farming and agribusiness. I will share a bit of information I received yesterday. When one starts receiving such things, one wonders if anybody from the government benches is doing any reading. Specifically, this comes from Dowler-Karn. I would really like to thank Dowler-Karn and the great people there who are servicing our farmers daily to try to make sure we get crops off and that grains are being dried and everything.

Dowler-Karn has seven locations from Windsor to Kitchener and services industry, agricultural producers, trucking companies and some residential home heating. It does not service gas stations or the mandatory residential home heating. I contacted Dowler-Karn in respect to its carbon tax expenses and was shocked to learn about the revenue that is leaving Elgin—Middlesex—London.

In a 12-month period, from November 30, $27.2 million in carbon tax was sent from Elgin—Middlesex—London to the federal government from Dowler-Karn alone, which is only one of the riding's providers. By April 1, 2024, rates will be going up 23%, so the carbon tax for 2024 is estimated by Dowler-Karn at $34 million.

Where does one think the $34 million comes from? It is added as one of the input costs to farmers. It is that simple. It is part of the business costs, so at the end of the day, when input costs go up, we are going to see the cost of food going up. It is really difficult for me to talk about food if we are not going to actually recognize that carbon tax plays a huge role in the production of food. It makes me very concerned that we are ignoring this.

Currently, the monthly average for Dowler-Karn is $2 million to $2.5 million in carbon tax. Recently, the Canadian Propane Association released a study that, on average, Canadian households are spending $300 to $350 monthly on home heating alone. Currently, the rate of carbon tax on diesel fuel is 17.4¢ per litre, with an estimate to 45.4¢ per litre by 2023. This is affecting all transportation of goods in Canada by truck or rail.

I also want to read into the record an email that we received. We are talking about families. We are talking about how people are being impacted. We recognize that there is absolutely an urban and rural divide on this, but people in the cities may pay less when it comes to the carbon tax because maybe their driving distance is shorter, or their homes may be different, like they might not being living in century-old farm homes. Barry Brigham of London wrote:

With several years of country wide tax contribution income now in place and recognizing rebates extended back to taxpayers, my personal question...[to you] Has there ever been a public release of an accountability statement to the current summary of the carbon tax ledger dollar amount to share with taxpayers. Information such as the current balance along with income generated from interest and details as to the disbursement of this carbon tax income ledger detailing the direction of funds for environmental improvement areas would be of great value and interest to review for a majority of Canadians.

Why do I bring this up? It is because when we talk about all of this money that is coming from the carbon tax, this psychological program that they are playing with Canadians, we are seeing that Canadians are paying a lot of money and they are absolutely desperate. They are asking where the government is taking the money it is receiving from the carbon tax, and are asking where it is investing it to ensure that we actually have climate solutions. That is what we see. The government continues to put its money into the general coffers so it has more revenue. This is a tax plan. It is all about bringing more money in, but we are not seeing the investments in technologies that we need to see.

On Bill C-234, let us turn to something that is really disgusting. I have an email here from some farmers in my riding. Currently, one livestock farmer has already spent approximately $38,000 in carbon tax alone to heat his barns, and will be spending approximately $12,000 in carbon tax to dry his grain.

Another large farming corporation that does some incredible work in the grain and oilseeds industry has already paid $80,000 in carbon tax. Where do people think this money comes from? It will come from the consumer at the end of the day because the input costs continue to go up.

I know I do not have a lot of time left. We have talked about the families, we have talked about the farmers and now we need to talk about our first nations. I think one of the greatest challenges I have seen here is the fact that the first nations have been left out of this. We saw Atlantic Canada get a break on the carbon tax. Why? It was not working and it was making people poor.

We are hearing the same things from our indigenous leaders. I want to read from a CBC article by Olivia Stefanovich. It states, “Ontario First Nations leaders are asking the Federal Court to exempt their communities from the federal carbon tax, a policy”—

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

We have a point of order from the member for Courtenay—Alberni.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, and I have a ton of respect for this member, I want to remind members that indigenous peoples are not ours. I will give her a chance to correct the record.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do appreciate that and I will correct the record. I recognize that indigenous people are a huge part of our Canadian history and are a huge part of our Canadian social work. They are a huge part of our history, so I do appreciate that.

The article states, “The First Nations argue that the imposition of the price on carbon is leaving their communities worse off than others in Canada and breaching the principles of reconciliation.” The Prime Minister, in 2015, stated that the greatest relationship is that with the indigenous people. How dare he say that when we know this is one of the greatest challenges? Why are people having difficulties? It is because they cannot put the fuel they need in their snowmobiles. Gasoline is being taxed. We know food is being taxed to get up there. It costs more money. Food costs more.

At the end of the day, I am asking that every parliamentarian in here supports Canadian families, supports Canadians farmers and supports first nations, and axes the carbon tax.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do value the hon. member's input, but I have a question. In an era when big grocery is raking in massive profits, which, unfortunately, the opposition does not want to talk about, does the old Conservative idea of trickle-down economics square?

Can the member guarantee, if we take the tax off farmers and truckers, that it will trickle down to the consumer or will it simply absorbed by the folks up and down the chain?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My colleague across the way just heckled, “You guys are literally brain dead.” That is exactly what the member for Dufferin—Caledon just said. I am wondering if you could perhaps ask him to retract that comment to at least have the perception of there being some decorum in this House.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

I did not hear that.

The hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I was just going to suggest that if you do that, I will then ask that he retract the retraction. It was a good-natured comment and the member has nothing to apologize for.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Chris d'Entremont]

Since I did not hear it, I would have to go back and listen. I do not know if we time to come back before this debate is complete. I will go back to find out if that is what was said.

The hon. member for Elgin—Middlesex—London.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we know that the member for Kingston and the Islands loves to rise on points of order, so I would like to make sure I am getting my time back from his wasted point of order. I am, thanks very much.

I was asked a very important question. Instead of questioning whether farmers are going to put money in their own pockets, we should ask the government why it keeps putting it in its pockets. The question that keeps being asked is what will happen if the carbon tax is not taken off and it is added on. We will be throwing our money to the government that continues to just waste it. Perhaps we should trust farmers way before we trust the government.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rose earlier on a point of order to remind my colleague that indigenous people are not ours.

My colleague went on to say that indigenous people are part of our history. They are not just part of our history. Indigenous people in my riding fight every day to get through the challenges they face because of government policies that have tried to destroy them. They say every day that they are still here. They fight every day to remind people and let each other know that they are still here. They are not just part of our history, they are still here and need to be a predominant part of the conversation moving forward.

To the question from my good friend, the 2021 election price-on-carbon platform running Conservative, why did she run on a platform to put a price on carbon, but today is running so hard against it?