Debates of Sept. 28th, 2023

Opposition Motion—Carbon Taxes

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Madam Speaker, there was facetiousness in the House of Commons? I am shocked.

I would like to know how many constituents have called the hon. member from the Bloc and said that they support a radical increase in tax on their fuel. How many constituents are happy that fuel is going through the roof and increasing the cost of their home, living, groceries and food?

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague for Peterborough—Kawartha is right in that Canadians are hurting. There is the price of gas and the price of food, and yet all the Conservatives put up as a solution is to cut the carbon tax. The carbon tax went up 3¢ a litre this year.

There was such a lot of rage farming that I got a lot of calls from my constituents, who did not know that the federal carbon tax does not apply in British Columbia or that it was only going up 3¢. The price of gas had gone up almost a dollar in that time. None of that was due to the carbon tax.

The reason people are hurting, in terms of fuel increases, is because of the greed of the big oil companies. The Conservatives have said absolutely nothing about that in this place.

When are they going to face the facts and tackle the real problem?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Madam Speaker, I respect all my colleagues in the House, but that is laughable.

The Liberals and the NDP, who signed a coalition, said to lock one's interest rates in; they were never going to go up, and everything was going to be great. People are losing their homes.

To say that we are not doing anything for affordability is bonkers. The Liberals and NDP are wasting an astronomical amount of money. Inflation is through the roof. Interest rates have jumped to 5%. People cannot make their mortgage payments. They cannot feed their kids.

To tell us that we are not doing anything is bonkers. The Conservatives are the only members in the House fighting for affordability, to help people be able to afford to live.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Calgary Nose Hill, Public Safety; the hon. member for Calgary Rocky Ridge, Carbon Pricing.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow my friend, the formidable MP for Peterborough—Kawartha. We come from different parts of the country and different backgrounds, but as are all Conservatives in our big, growing movement, we are united with our Conservative leader to fight to axe the carbon tax; to bring down food and fuel prices, as well as heating and cooling costs for all Canadians; to build homes Canadians can afford; and to bring jobs, money, businesses, natural resource development and exports.

Conservatives will bring project approvals up and the cost of traditional energy down. We will green-light green technology and ensure major projects and infrastructure can get built in this country again, so all Canadians can have accessible, affordable, reliable fuel and power, and, most importantly, hope for the future.

Our leader and Conservatives warned the NDP-Liberal government repeatedly during the past eight years that its reckless tax, spending and inflationary deficit agenda would drive investment out of Canada and make everything more expensive for everyone. Only a few months after I was elected as the MP to represent the people of Lakeland, in response to the 2016 budget, even I warned of the dangers of this regressive, repressive tax. Before the Liberals imposed it, I said then, which is clearly true today, that the carbon tax was just a revenue generator for government to feed reckless spending and out-of-control deficits masquerading as environmental policy.

However, the NDP-Liberals have traded on all Canadians' deep concern and care for the environment to cover their obvious cash grab. The proof is in the most difficult ways. Almost a decade into their irresponsible, harmful experiment, it has been all economic pain and no environmental gain for Canadians. Of course, the MP who predicted everything about the consequences of the NDP-Liberal agenda was our leader, the MP for Carleton, in his previous role as the official opposition finance shadow minister. What is remarkable is that he also warned of the risks and costs back in 2007, 16 years ago, of the Liberals' plan to implement a carbon tax, which he warned would cost everyday Canadians thousands of dollars that they would not be able to afford. He has always opposed it, and we still do.

In terms of inflation, rising interest rates and the skyrocketing prices for essentials such as gas, groceries and home heating, Conservatives warned about the connections of all these policies. We warned that the dreams of new and young Canadians would be compromised and undermined by the NDP-Liberal policies that always do, in real terms, the very opposite of what they claim. The NDP-Liberals like to say that they do not take lessons from Conservatives or our leader, but they really should have. It would have saved all Canadians years of struggles, bankruptcies, foreclosures, anxiety, catastrophic losses of generational opportunities, hundreds of thousands of job losses, billions in investments and a brain drain to other countries, allies and foes alike. It is a tragic hindsight, and it is obvious that they really should have listened.

Canadians remember the Liberals' main 2015 promise that they would help the middle class and those working hard to join it, but the facts are stark, and these are pesky things for politicians such as the Prime Minister, who do not keep their word or take responsibility. As the Prime Minister has been in power for almost a decade, it is time for him to answer for it. The truth is that, under the previous Conservative government, more Canadian kids and vulnerable families were lifted out of poverty than at any other time in the history of our country, and Canada's middle class became the richest middle class of any country on earth in 2014. At that time, it really was sunny skies ahead.

What has happened today? The Liberals have moved the way their government measures the poverty line to pretend their policies have worked. The middle class is dwindling, because the vast majority of Canadians cannot pay their bills or cover their essential costs, and more Canadians are falling behind after eight years under the Prime Minister and the NDP-Liberal government.

The truth is that there is no honest way to skirt the fact that the NDP-Liberals' carbon taxes have very real, punitive and burdensome impacts on everyday Canadians. In Lakeland, the NDP-Liberals' carbon tax will cost people nearly $4,000 a year in the next six years. The consequence is that Canadians everywhere, not just in Lakeland, are struggling to make ends meet, to put food on the table, to fuel their vehicles, and to heat and cool their homes and businesses. In the vast majority of our country there are just no other immediately available and affordable options for Canadians. They are left with no choice. They are squeezed by all sides, and it is at a breaking point after eight years under the Prime Minister and his NDP-Liberal policies.

The Liberals can spin it all they want. They can dig in and stubbornly justify their harmful agenda, but the independent Parliamentary Budget Officer confirms what we warned, that the NDP-Liberal carbon tax hikes the cost of literally everything. This is why 80% of Canadians pay more than they will ever get back from the Liberals, exactly as we said.

The independent PBO also found that the tax has not actually reduced emissions since it was imposed. It is a cash grab. It is not a bug, an accident or an unintended consequence. It is a feature of their agenda. The Liberals themselves admitted that their carbon tax is meant to make driving more expensive, and they are plowing ahead to quadruple those costs and add a second carbon tax on top of it. Together, those taxes would hike prices at the pumps by 61¢ a litre in the next seven years. Seriously, who could afford this?

There is no light at the end of the tunnel for most Canadians under these NDP-Liberals, who are totally out of touch. Now, exactly as we warned, Canadians are out of money. Canadians are not sitting around hoping the government that claims it is here to help would make it totally impossible for them to afford to drive and heat their homes, but this is actually exactly what the NDP-Liberals and Bloc want to do and are doing.

As we warned, it is mostly hurting the working poor, people on fixed incomes, rural and remote Canadians, indigenous communities and, especially, people in rural regions in the west and Atlantic Canada. This is because of the differences in the realities of the various regions and provinces.

Canadians in our biggest cities can hardly even afford to rent a single room in a single house. That alone is thousands of dollars. They cannot keep up with interest rate hikes caused by soaring inflationary deficit spending, which are pushing their rent and mortgages out of reach. We also warned about this in 2016.

It is not a pleasure, at all, to tell the NDP-Liberals that we told them so, because of all the pain, anger and anxiety they have caused. However, they also cannot pretend that Conservatives did it.

Colinton is a village of 170 people near Athabasca, in a beautiful area where the landscape shifts to rolling hills and more lakes, giving way to the treasured and beautiful boreal forest that spans throughout northern Alberta. Gordie from Colinton wrote to me and said that his daughter and her husband have four kids, and here is the crucial and horrible part that would be familiar to most Canadians: They both have well-paying jobs. However, by the time they pay rent, gas, power and heating, the family has to skimp on groceries or choose to not pay some bills. As we all know, this often ends up in a spiral people cannot escape.

This is not just happening in Lakeland. It is a common reality, and it is a travesty that Canadians now face, after almost a decade under the Prime Minister, in urban and rural communities alike, in every region of the country.

Rob from Bonnyville had never contacted my office before, but he recently did so because he needed to tell me about the dire situation with his gas bill. He said,

We are paying more than 100% tax on the small amount of gas we are using. If this tax is supposed to be for the amount of CO2 generated by the burning of the gas, something is definitely wrong here.

What happens in winter when the gas bill is $100 or more, are we going to be gouged over $100 for the tax as well? This is certainly an unfair tax charged to Canadian citizens.

He also said, “What about the seniors on a fixed income, they cannot afford this kind of charge.”

It was -52°C for a couple of weeks in my backyard last Christmas, so it is obvious why Ron is worried. He is just one of the four out of every five Canadians who will pay more in carbon tax than they get back, while nearly half of Canadians are forced to borrow just for basics and have no emergency savings. More than ever before, 20% of Canadians are skipping meals, and seven million struggle to put food on the table. Sixty-nine per cent of seniors have to postpone their retirement because of these NDP-Liberal policies.

All this, in a first world country blessed with all the human capital and abundant natural resources that underpin our entire economy, if only the Liberal government would stop keeping it in the ground through red taping and gatekeeping. It is a disgrace.

This is not really a theoretical debate either. What Conservatives are saying is true. It is happening in real time. It is literally how things work when an out-of-touch, out-of-ideas government taxes the farmers and ranchers who grow the food, the processors and all the agri-food businesses that make the food, the truckers who ship it, the stores that sell it, and the people who buy it, which is literally all of us because we all need to eat, who are also taxed on their own fuel and home heating. The consequences are that Canadians cannot cover the basics. They cannot afford to eat. What is this for?

No one can really answer that anymore, because there is no proven or discernible impact on emissions reduction. Emissions have increased every year in the past eight years, except when all Canadians were locked down by COVID.

Conservatives will axe the carbon tax to bring prices and costs down for Canadians so they can have hope for the future. We will turn hurt into hope. The NDP-Liberals should be ashamed of themselves. It is clearly not worth the cost.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change and to the Minister of Sport and Physical Activity]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the commentary by my colleague from Lakeland in Alberta. I love Alberta and visit often. I always enjoy a warm reception when I am there.

There are a couple of things that I take umbrage with in the member's speech, namely, child poverty rates. According to child poverty rates in 2015 when this government took office, Canada was ranked 24th in the OECD and today, thanks to the Canada child benefit, Canada is ranked second. There is more work to be done.

A Calgary-based economist looked into the cost of carbon pricing on a grocery bill. For a family of four, Trevor Tombe found that carbon pricing adds about five dollars to a monthly grocery bill for a family of four in Alberta and two dollars for a family in Ontario. The rhetoric around $4,000 to $6,000 a year from the member, which is false, also ignores the fact that there is a $386 quarterly payment through the climate action incentive, something that the Conservatives never want to acknowledge. That is $1,444 that helps the least-well-off Albertans the most.

The member for Lakeland—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I have to give the hon. member the chance to answer the question.

The hon. member for Lakeland.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, I do not know why the Liberals keep asking me this question since I was a very strong internal and then later external critic of that policy. I did not run on it and the person who put it forward unilaterally is no longer here, because the Conservative caucus made an extremely difficult but principled decision. We will axe the carbon tax.

I think that the Liberals should just keep right on saying that Canadians have never had it better, that their agenda is working, that it is so easy and so good for Canadians. We will, like my colleague said, remain the only party in this House of Commons that wants to make life affordable, that wants to bring prices and costs down for all Canadians, and that wants to give every single Canadian hope for the future that they deserve.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, ultimately, the carbon tax is about a climate change measure. It is part of a climate change plan. What I dislike is that this is not enough of a conversation about how we deal with the climate crisis. We need to be dealing with it in multiple ways. I am sure the member will agree with me when I say that the Liberals have met none of their targets with the plan, so there needs to be an even broader conversation on how to deal with it.

I have one very easy question for the member. The member of her party from South Shore—St. Margarets this afternoon said that hurricanes have been happening for hundreds of years in his riding and that wildfires are man-made. Does she believe climate change is real? Does she believe wildfires are a result of climate change?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, this is the issue. The NDP-Liberals claim that their carbon tax is in place to reduce emissions, even though the model that they have imposed does not reflect anything near what economists who propose carbon taxes for emissions reductions actually propose, which is an equivalent reduction in red-tape taxes to offset the price and exemptions for emissions-intensive trade-exposed industries. The truth is that model is not even up for debate. It is not what the Liberals have done and it is not what the NDP-Liberals support.

I think it is their job to explain to Canadians how this is possibly worth the cost. They need to tell Canadians how high the prices have to go before they are going to see a difference.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am going to repeat my colleague's very simple question. Is climate change real or not?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Madam Speaker, Conservatives will take action to reduce emissions globally by exporting our technology and products to help our allies get off dictator oil and ensure Canadians' energy self-sufficiency and security so we can support our allies. Energy security, self-sufficiency and sustainability dictate the price of food and the standard of living, which is a crucial thing for this country to secure that has absolutely languished and been lost, I fear generationally, under the NDP-Liberals.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, I know that the member for Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge really wants to get up. I believe if you seek it you will find unanimous consent to allow the inventor of the carbon tax in British Columbia to ask a question at this time.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

I do not think the hon. member wants to challenge my decision to pursue debate.

The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Madam Speaker, it has been quite a day. We have heard a lot of different things. I will do my best to remain calm.

For starters, the Conservatives wonder why we do not adopt their motions, why we do not vote in favour of most of them. I will tell them, quite honestly, that it is because most of their motions are rigged. Most of their motions contain inaccuracies. Then, they get offended when we say they are not telling the truth. We are here to serve the public interest; we are not here to pass anything and everything.

It is interesting, because our party is mentioned in the motion. During question period today, I even saw members of the official opposition asking questions of the Bloc Québécois. I found that very interesting. Perhaps they see an independent Quebec in the future, with some of us in government. I found that amusing, so I just wanted to point it out.

The motion states that the Bloc Québécois supported and adopted the clean fuel regulations with the Liberal government. It also refers to the Liberal-Bloc coalition. It is rather funny, though, because coalitions change from one week to the next in this Parliament. Sometimes we hear about the Liberal-NDP coalition. Sometimes the Conservatives also move motions that make sense, and we support them. When that happens, the Liberals talk about the Bloc-Conservative coalition. It changes all the time, so it is super entertaining. I invite people at home to do a survey on this and compile the statistics to see which coalition is the most frequent. Clearly, it is a bit ridiculous to make these accusations.

Today's motion states almost verbatim that the Bloc supported the clean fuel regulations. I often tell my constituents that it is very important for the Bloc Québécois to be present in the federal Parliament, even if our political party will never be in power, because we have a great deal of influence. That said, I did not think our influence was that significant, since regulations are adopted by the government. We do not vote on regulations, so when the Conservatives say that we passed those regulations, it is not true.

If it upsets the Conservatives when we tell them that it is a lie, then what can we say? I will go back to what I was saying. On top of that, these clean fuel regulations will have no impact on Quebec because the Government of Quebec already has regulations that call for greenhouse gas emissions to be reduced by 15% by 2030. That is what it says in the regulations.

We are not the ones who adopted the clean fuel regulations and we never supported them. What is more, these regulations will make no difference to Quebeckers' wallets. What I am saying is serious because they have been repeating this all day long. Repeating a lie a million times does not make it true. Actually, it depends on the lie. For a year now the Conservatives have been saying that the Liberal government has been in power for eight years. When they started saying that it had been only seven years. It was therefore not true. In a month it will be eight years, at which point it will be true. I am not sure if that will work for the other lies, but it works for this one.

We are here to work for the people and to try to move forward on issues. Some will say I am a dreamer, but I want to quote John Lennon. I just had a flash. There is a line in the song Imagine that goes like this:You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one

As a parliamentarian, I dream of the day when election campaigns last a month and a half or two months instead of three or four years; in the interval, we would work for the common good. I invite my Conservative colleagues to watch sittings from the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. I think we manage to work well together, and I am very proud of that. I have said it several times before in the House.

I try to bring the same attitude here. In that spirit, I will not start calling this or that member a liar. Instead, I will state that what was said is not true. Some might say that it is the same thing, but at least I will not use unparliamentary language. At least there is that.

The Bloc Québécois did not adopt the clean fuel regulations. I hope they make a clip of what I just said. The carbon tax does not apply in Quebec. I hope they make a clip of that, too. Quebec has an emissions trading system that was established with California and that is still in force. The system was set up in 2013, if I am not mistaken. That date is just off the top of my head. It may have been a little more recent than that. Actually, forget I mentioned the date. This system was adopted prior to the carbon tax and is advantageous for Quebeckers. It is estimated that it adds 8.8¢ to the price of a litre of gasoline in Quebec, compared with 14.3¢ for the carbon tax. That definitely means we are at an advantage, not a disadvantage.

When the Conservative members from Quebec strongly denounce the carbon tax, accuse the mean old Bloc of costing Quebeckers a lot of money and say that, if they take office, they will repeal the carbon tax and put money directly back in Quebeckers' pockets, it is not true. Quebec's emissions trading system will remain in effect even if the Conservatives repeal the carbon tax that applies in other provinces. It is important to point that out. When I rise in the House, I will always make it my duty to clearly and calmly set the record straight.

We said that the Conservatives were proposing simplistic solutions. Earlier, a member quoted our use of the word “simplistic” and said that the Conservatives' solution was indeed simple because it would put money back in Quebeckers' pockets. The word “simplistic” actually means something that seems simple but is actually ineffective and poorly thought out, something that does not actually solve the problem. With all due respect, I would invite the Conservatives to look up the definition of the word “simplistic” so that they know for next time. Perhaps they should stop trying to exploit opposition to climate change and the cost of living for their own political gain. It is true that the cost of living is high and that that is very serious, but there are other places where the government can find money. Oil companies are making outrageous profits. We talked about that today.

At the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, we studied inflation at the grocery store and made some recommendations. One of them, of course, was about the need to determine the breakdown of the profits being made by the major grocery chains, which constitute an oligopoly. The five major grocery chains control 80% of the market. We are hearing a lot today about the price of gas. Funnily enough, the oil companies are also an oligopoly. As far as gas is concerned, we know how much money those companies are making. As far as the grocery sector is concerned, we do not know. What we are saying is that we need this information to determine what action the government can take, because concrete measures will have to be taken to help our agri-food businesses.

There is one thing that boggles my mind when it comes to the fight against climate change. It is hearing some people say that we need to produce oil and build pipelines, without taking climate change into account, because they expect that this will lower the cost of living. I urge my colleagues to talk to vegetable farmers, particularly in Quebec, but also elsewhere. Some had to deal with torrential rains all summer long. Of course, we cannot always make a direct scientific link between a particular season and global warming. However, I could also mention forest fires, more frequent hurricanes and a whole host of other events.

We cannot link each element directly, but we can see that the frequency is higher, that the climate disruptions are substantial and that it is costing money. It is not true that climate change does not cost money. It is costing us a tremendous amount of money. This summer, the forest fires cost us $8 billion, and that does not even take the long-term effects into account. Just think of the cost of insurance. There will come a day when the companies will no longer want to insure people who live in fire-prone areas. That is important as well. As far as insurance is concerned, can we determine together how to share the cost of the risk factor with farmers in order to maintain food production for the future? Keeping food production local and not relying on foreign companies that can raise prices overnight could also bring down the cost of living.

In closing, I invite my Conservative colleagues, with all due respect, to be more conscientious. Let us work together for the common good.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

It being 5:15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, all questions necessary to dispose of the opposition motion are deemed put and a recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Wednesday, October 4, 2023, at the expiry of the time provided for Oral Questions.

The hon. deputy House leader is rising on a point of order.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Madam Speaker, I believe if you seek it, you will find unanimous consent to see the clock at 5:30 p.m. so we can start Private Members' Business.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Is it agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-284, An Act to establish a national strategy for eye care, as reported (with amendments) from the committee.

Speaker's Ruling

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

There is one motion in amendment standing on the Notice Paper for the report stage of Bill C-284. Motion No. 1 will be debated and voted upon.

I will now put Motion No. 1 to the House.

Motions in Amendment

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, Humber River—Black Creek, ON]

moved:

That Bill C-284, in Clause 2, be amended

(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 10 on page 2 with the following:

“(a) identify the needs of health care professionals and other professionals in relation to”

(b) by replacing, in the English version, line 12 on page 2 with the following:

“ment of eye disease and on vision rehabilitation;”

The question was put on Motion No. 1 and it was agreed to on division.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

The question is on Motion No. 1.

If a member participating in person wishes that the motion be carried or carried on division or if a member of a recognized party participating in person wishes to request a recorded division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

The deputy House leader.