François Langlois

[Questions On The Order Paper, May 14th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I simply wanted to mention that the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader asked that all Order Paper questions be allowed to stand and the official opposition gave its consent. We want you to know there is unanimous consent in this regard.

[National Security, May 14th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to say how pleased I am to see that the Solicitor General is back. We were all very concerned about his condition during his absence, and we are pleased to see him back in his seat today, because he was sorely missed. This makes us realize how fragile a gift health is. As the hon. member for Laval Centre would probably say, we must be ever mindful of our health.

I am somewhat torn between the pleasure of welcoming the Solicitor General back and the comments I have a duty to make, as a member of the official opposition, about the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. Having participated in 11 elections, the Solicitor General will no doubt understand that, as much as I may admire his work, I must also do mine, hence the following criticism.

Of course I agree with the statements of principle the Solicitor General made with regard to the role of the Canadian Security

Intelligence Service. I am also happy to see that the hon. member for Fundy-Royal agrees with my previous remarks. I hope that we can continue to see eye to eye.

The trouble does not lie so much with what the Solicitor General said. We can of course readily share his views about Canada's best interests and threats to national security. On the subject of espionage, industrial espionage and new spying techniques, he expressed some interesting thoughts because, as he said, these problems have to be tackled.

He talked about the worldwide nuclear threat arising from the break-up of countries possessing deterrent and even nuclear attack capabilities; that too is something that concerns us. The same goes for international terrorism using chemical weapons. The incidents in Oklahoma City or Tokyo and the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin in Israel were mentioned.

But not a word was said about the role played by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service at home, in Canada, and that is our main concern. Our main concern stems from the realization that, for all intents and purposes, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service is out of control. It has literally become a state within the state.

Who knows about CSIS operations? Perhaps a handful of officials at the Department of the Solicitor General, sometimes the Solicitor General himself. But it has become obvious since the beginning of the 35th Parliament, since I personally became involved in the work of the national security sub-committee, that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service does not have any watchdog, inasmuch as the legislation provides for one, in the form of a review committee, which reviews whatever it is given to review.

The Security Intelligence Review Committee, or SIRC-CSARS in French-is an organization that has demonstrated its utter inefficiency in carrying out the duties entrusted to it by Parliament. If the Solicitor General has privileged information from SIRC, he should pass it on to us.

Since the end of 1994, almost two years ago, we have been working on the Heritage Front affair. This problem did not occur in Israel, Belarus or the Middle East, but here in this country. There are allegations that an extremist group may have committed illegal acts here in this country.

For two years we have been bogged down in our efforts to enlist the co-operation of members of the famous SIRC or Security Intelligence Review Committee, who have appeared before us parliamentarians in the Sub-committee on National Security but who have been hiding behind their so-called immunity to refuse to answer the legitimate questions asked by members. This ordeal has lasted for nearly two years. They laughed at us and refused to answer our questions, so that we have not made much progress so far. We, of course, had to make deductions rather than rely on honest, clear and precise answers to our questions.

There is a problem in a democratic society when a review committee, an external committee like SIRC, sees parliamentarians as the enemy. Rather, those people should see us as those who are responsible for public administration and for monitoring them, and should give us all the information they have without arguing. Unfortunately, such was not the case.

It is with sadness that once again this year I must point out that the membership of SIRC has not been reviewed. We as the official opposition, and the hon. member for Surrey-White Rock-South Langley on behalf of the Reform Party, had asked that SIRC be a reflection of the 35th Parliament. Who are the members of SIRC, the Security Intelligence Review Committee? Only people who represent or were appointed on the recommendation of the Liberal Party of Canada or of other parties that are not even recognized any more in this House, namely the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party. Since the beginning of the 35th Parliament, no one has been appointed on the recommendation of the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the third party. This is not normal.

How can we trust an organization that deals in this fashion with national security issues that may have a direct impact on democracy in Canada? The level of confidence is extremely low, and perhaps even non existent. Psychologists refer to "basic trust". The basic trust is no longer there. The basic trust required for an organization to function properly is gone; it has been gone for a long time.

It is imperative to amend the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act so as to change, among others, the Security Intelligence Review Committee and decide on its membership at the beginning of each Parliament, based on the will expressed by Canadians through their ballots. It is not normal to see an organization such as this one represent political parties that were in place previously, instead of reflecting the current situation.

Once again, I urge the minister to consider this request to review the act. We will, of course, support the measures we have been seeking for a long time. I will continue to raise this issue.

I also want to point out the lack of co-operation between the government and the parliamentary sub-committee on national security. Throughout 1995, and for a good part of 1996, we benefited from the contribution of the hon. member for Scarborough West, who was a full-fledged member of this committee. His help allowed us to make major progress on the Heritage Front

issue, concerning which we should normally table a report. In fact, we are meeting this morning at eleven.

I urge government authorities, and particularly the Solicitor General, to reinstate the member for Scarborough West as a full-fledged member of the national security sub-committee, so that we can arrive at a decision. The member was a regular at the committee, as well as a leader in the search for truth that we were obliged to conduct by inference, since we had little information to go on.

I also ask the government to follow up on the unanimous wish of this House, as expressed by the adoption of Motion M-38, on March, 21, 1995, more than a year ago. The motion, tabled by the hon. member for Scarborough-Rouge River, asked that the operations of the Communications Security Establishment, the CSE, be reviewed by an independent body. The CSE was set up during World War II, by order in council and, today, its operations are not monitored by anyone, except the Prime Minister's office and, from time to time, the office of the Minister of National Defence. The time has come to act, since the House sent a message to that effect.

As I said earlier, we should amend the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, to make the Sub-committee on National Security a standing committee. The same members could sit on this standing committee and meet throughout the duration of a Parliament. They could have a much broader power of inquiry than they have now, including the powers to call witnesses, to order the production of documents and to carry out in-depth cross interrogations, thongs we cannot do right now. Were are a bit like a paper tiger and have become a laughing stock.

Moreover, all reports submitted to the Solicitor General pursuant to section 54 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act should also be forwarded to the Sub-committee on National Security for examination, in camera of course. Granting us this power would go a long way in enhancing the role we have to play as parliamentarians. Such a committee would provide a very efficient service and help all Canadians to regain confidence in the parliamentarians they have elected to run the country.

We have one last request for the Solicitor General. We would like the government, through the Treasury Board, to act as soon as possible in order to grant, as requested by the current director of CSIS the money needed to pay the bilingual bonus to RCMP officers transferred to the service when it was first established in 1984, as well as to other employees of the service. In a letter he sent us last Friday, the Solicitor General said that in order to pay these bilingual bonuses cuts within the service would be needed.

The thing is, we should not have to cut the services CSIS needs, rather we must inject the money needed, as was done in the rest of the public service, in order to pay a bilingual bonus to the employees who deserve it and are entitled to it.

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and your patience and for giving me 20 additional seconds to conclude.

[Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty, May 6th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, how will the Minister of Finance compensate pensioners in Canada and Quebec who are paying for the unfair tax treaties signed by their own government?

[Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty, May 6th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

On March 29, the Minister of Finance admitted in this House that the new Canada-U.S. tax treaty was unfair to Canadians and Quebecers receiving U.S. pensions and that he did not agree with the Americans' way of doing things. However, he is not doing anything to help his fellow citizens.

Could the Minister of Finance tell the House about the discussions he has had on this matter with his American counterpart, Mr. Rubin, by disclosing among other things the various options put forward by this government to resolve the issue of U.S. pensions?

[Employment Insurance Act, May 2nd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your giving me the floor so early. Our proceedings are moving faster and faster, exactly the reverse of what we are used to from the government.

Regarding this bill, before oral question period, I was listening to my colleague, the member for Portneuf, with whom I share the same views on the negative consequences of unemployment insurance. At the end of my speech, I will have the opportunity to be more specific as to its impact on the area I represent, namely the south shore, the area of Bellechasse.

Obviously, when we talk about unemployment insurance, it always brings us back to the history of the Canadian Federation, to

the constitutional background of this whole issue. I will go back to a time when my father had just turned 30, in 1938, and a new session was starting; 10 years later, I had the pleasure to be born, coming into a world of unemployment insurance. I will read something I wrote several years ago.

In 1938, at the start of the new session of Parliament, the government mentioned in the throne speech that it was seeking the co-operation of the provinces to amend the British North America Act to give the Canadian Parliament the necessary power to implement a national unemployment insurance plan.

The governor general added:

"My ministers hope that the proposal may meet with early approval in order that unemployment insurance legislation may be enacted during the present session of Parliament".

That was in 1938. In fact, as early as November 5, 1937, the federal government had contacted the provincial governments and asked them their views on the principle of an amendment to the British North America Act that would give unemployment insurance to the federal authority.

It must be remembered that there was no amending formula at the time. We will see the somewhat twisted and strange way in which the federal government acted to take over control of unemployment insurance.

So, in 1937, a detailed proposal was submitted to the provinces; in March 1938, the provinces of British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island had totally agreed on the amendment proposed by the federal government. As for the Government of Ontario, it had given its agreement in principle without expressing its views on the text submitted by the federal government. Only Alberta, New Brunswick and Quebec had refused to agree to the constitutional amendment.

It must be remembered that in 1938 the Union Nationale government, under Mr. Duplessis, whose favourite theme was respect for provincial autonomy, was certainly not about to agree to such an amendment. The Government of Quebec was undoubtedly willing to assume responsibility for unemployment insurance in due course, according to the wishes of the voters.

However, after the provinces in question rejected its proposal, the federal government did not go ahead with its plan. According to the statements made by the then Prime Minister of Canada, Mackenzie King, especially in 1938-39, although the federal government did not want to enshrine in a constitutional agreement the principle that constitutional amendments should be approved by the provinces, it was not willing to go ahead with its proposal as long as there was provincial opposition to it.

What happened? On June 25, 1940, Prime Minister Mackenzie King made the announcement in the House of Commons that all nine Canadian provinces had finally approved the amendment proposed by the federal government. Quebec had elected a new government, the Godbout government, in 1939. Ernest Lapointe, the minister, got involved in the election campaign, saying that the Liberals were the only guarantee against conscription. As members may recall, they did not keep their promise, giving the green light to conscription for Quebecers and ignoring the results of the 1942 plebiscite. Even today, in 1996, our questions to the government remain unanswered: Would it respect Quebecers' democratic vote on the same issue today? The question remains unanswered, as it was in 1942, when the plebiscite results were ignored.

The Government of Quebec at the time paid dearly, losing the 1944 election, which saw the Union Nationale return to power. The government paid the price, but it was already too late. No amending formula, no public ratification. How did this happen? Through telephone calls-or telegraph messages at the time-or simply through an exchange of letters.

In eight out of the nine provinces-as members may recall, Newfoundland was still a Dominion at the time, a status which Newfoundlanders may or may not regret-only the cabinet had conveyed its approval in a simple letter. A two cent stamp to say they agreed with a constitutional amendment. Only the British Columbia legislature formally approved the amendment. In only one out of the nine provinces was the amendment voted on by members of the legislature.

Then there was a letter most likely signed by the clerk of the executive council that said: "Yes, let us amend the Canadian Constitution". In a strong position because of this letter, the House voted an address to the Imperial Parliament asking for some amendments to the Canadian Constitution. It is important to note however that, following a decision made two years earlier, on June 17, 1936, this was one of the rare occasions where the Supreme Court of Canada stated 1936, that the employment and social insurance act was ultra vires the powers of the federal Parliament, hence recognizing provincial jurisdiction over this area. The decision of the Supreme Court was sanctioned by the Privy Council in 1937, on January 27, 1937, to be specific.

These dates have to be mentioned, because in constitutional matters, as we have often heard and as my grandfather used to say, the Supreme Court is like the leaning tower of Pisa, it always leans the same way. Nothing has changed. It was the same in the 1930s, it was the same at the beginning of the century, and it all started in 1875, when that court was first established.

To come back to what the Minister of Justice said earlier, when he told the House that he wants to intervene in litigation dealing with Quebec issues and with the fundamental right of Quebecers to self-determination, I sure hope that the last word over the future of the people of Quebec will remain in the hands of those, in Quebec, who have the right to vote. The right to self-determination is a question of legitimacy that cannot be restricted by any outside influence.

Following this brief overview-I have many more pages I could read on this, but I will refrain from doing so-of the situation in an area like mine, that goes from the Beauce region to the beautiful riding of Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, from the St. Lawrence River to the Maine border, I can tell the House that the legislation before us will hurt. The same as in all the regions. The regions will be hit hardest. Members who represent other areas have also expressed their point of view.

It will be tough on seasonal workers, and there are a lot of forestry workers in my riding who, because of the production calendar in this industry, work a limited number of months every year and will be hard pressed to work the required number of hours to become eligible for UI benefits. They will then have to resort to welfare. Once workers get a taste of welfare, it is hard to get them all back to work.

In general, people in my area are not very rich. They are poor financially, but their wealth is in their heart, in their fundamental values. These are people who want to work, who like to work, who do not complain for no reason but who want to enjoy the same benefits as other Canadians do. However, these are people who, because of what I would call the unemployment insurance map, are included in regions that are not to their advantage.

When I see that, for unemployment insurance evaluation purposes, the people of Sainte-Apolline, in my riding, a community of less than 1,000 people where unemployment is high, where there is a forest management co-operative, are in the same group as the people of thriving communities such as Saint-Jean-Chrysostome or Saint-Romuald, in the riding of Lévis, I can say there is a problem with human resources development in Canada. We should look at this and draw up a new map that reflects reality.

People who live in the RCM of Montmagny and in the RCM of L'Islet have a lot more in common with people who live in the RCM of Kamouraska than with those who live in the RCM of Desjardins or of Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, which do not have the same dynamic and the same prosperity.

We have to be careful with statistics. What do we do when we want to get statistics? We interview people. We ask them questions about their income, about their employment status, about their employability. We make sure to come by when people are not around, when young people are not around. I have to say that in several parishes in my riding, especially in the southern part, near the state of Maine, the employment rate among young people is extremely low and these people have left that part of the riding in droves. And the ones who come back are almost sure not to find a job.

So we have to look closely at these numbers. I agree with the views expressed by my colleagues in the official opposition and I will vote accordingly on the proposed amendments at report stage.

[Rcmp, April 23rd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the parliamentary secretary for his answer, but I have a supplementary question.

Besides an ethics problem, we are faced here with a process problem, since the call for tender contained specific requirements tailor made for Mrs. Lynch. Would the parliamentary secretary not agree that the contract was awarded following a rigged advanced contract award notice, as the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell and chief government whip feared in a letter, dated July of 1995, to the solicitor general?

[Rcmp, April 23rd, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Yesterday, we questioned the Prime Minister about the $176,000 contract awarded to Jennifer Lynch, chairperson of the RCMP external review committee, to examine the current grievance system. We think Mrs. Lynch is in conflict of interest since she is also the one who hears the grievances filed by police officers.

Now that the government has had 24 hours to check things out, I would like to repeat the question I put to the Prime Minister. Can the Prime Minister explain why the RCMP granted Mrs. Lynch a one year contract worth $176,000 to review the current grievance system, when her duties require her to remain absolutely neutral toward both parties?

[Canada Labour Code, March 26th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, the only things the government has done since its election with respect to the RCMP have been to confirm the RCMP Commissioner's imperial status as a distinct employer, to drag its feet in putting the Gingras decision into application, to table Bill C-58 so as to prevent the RCMP from unionizing and, finally, to thumb its nose

at the most democratic rights of RCMP officers, for instance blocking Sergeant Major Gaétan Delisle from running for mayor of Saint-Blaise-sur-Richelieu.

When will the government begin to treat RCMP officers like every other Canadian citizen?

[Canada Labour Code, March 26th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Solicitor General.

On January 31, 1996, the following recommendation was made on page 55 of the report by the task force examining part I of the Canada Labour Code: "That the government undertake an examination to determine the appropriateness of allowing RCMP officers to unionize and to conduct collective bargaining under legislation other than the Canada Labour Code."

Yesterday the Solicitor General told the Canadian Police Association that he was refusing to allow RCMP officers to exercise their legitimate right to unionize. Does the minister not acknowledge that he has thus rejected out of hand the process of public consultation announced by the Minister of Labour concerning RCMP unionization?

[Grosse-Île, March 18th, 1996]

Mr. Speaker, it was with joy and emotion that the inhabitants of Bellechasse, the Côte-du-Sud and all of Quebec learned that the persistent efforts by the local population to preserve and develop Grosse-Île have borne fruit.

Grosse-Île was a quarantine station for tens of thousands of Irish between 1832 and 1937. Next year, on the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the cholera and typhus epidemic, which claimed over 5,000 victims in 1847, the Irish cemetery on Grosse-Île will be restored and a monument to the medical staff erected.

This is also an opportunity to recall the devotion and hospitality shown by French Canadians towards the Irish, a number of whom were adopted by French Canadian families. Having shared the same land and history as our Irish neighbours for several generations, we have all absorbed their values: courage, tenacity and determination. Long live Grosse-Île and the Irish memorial.