Len Hopkins

[Supply, March 23rd, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the question and for his very kind comments. As he knows, it is not every day that one gets a kind comment around here. So I will take it while it is coming.

When we were sitting as the defence review committee, the hon. member and I, we did look at morale in the forces. I think the state of morale was partly caused by economic circumstances. Particularly, we heard about problems in the lower ranks because of the pay structure. We heard about a lot of real problems because of lack of equipment. I can tell the hon. member and all members that practically as long as I have been in the House that has been a complaint from the military; they do not have enough equipment or the right equipment.

Today that is changing somewhat because the new ships, which we had a chance to visit and to have a good briefing on, are state of the art. We learned in Bosnia, that our armoured personnel carriers needed upgrading. We need new ones. The committee, as the hon. member knows, was very supportive of that.

We were very supportive about other items such as helmets and flak jackets. We took into consideration all the things that we heard from the people in the field, not someone coming in to brief the committee sitting on Parliament Hill. We travelled with our military for four days. We slept in the same quarters with them. We ate with them. We travelled in the personnel carriers. Members from both sides of the House had that opportunity.

It was very important because it impacted on the minds of committee members that if we are going to ask our troops to go abroad into difficult positions, whether it be cultural difficulties, the hatefulness that you run into in UN peacekeeping duties, that those people have to have equipment in order to perform their duties.

I am sure the hon. parliamentary secretary will agree with me that by and large on the committee we had unanimous support for this type of thing. The members worked very well together. The report is certainly one of the best reports that has been brought into the House on defence matters, not only in our time but certainly in years past.

I encourage the members of the committee to be very positive in the future in holding more committee meetings because, as I said in my remarks, we must continue to discuss the problems that arise, to take corrective measures and to make recommendations. We made many recommendations in that report. Many of them are already included in the white paper that was brought in by the government.

I want to point out to the hon. member who brought the motion before the House today that this is all part of the ongoing scenario. A committee brings in a report, we meet people firsthand and we agree they do have problems. Together we sit down, write a report and make recommendations and the government accepts those recommendations. Also, I am sure that more of them will be studied and taken into consideration in the future.

I want to thank the hon. parliamentary secretary who was very good to deal with on that report. He is well informed. We were very fortunate to have him as he is a retired admiral. The hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands is a retired colonel. I must say to the hon. parliamentary secretary that I was-

[Supply, March 23rd, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I do not know why the hon. member mentioned General Jeffries' report. I did not refer to it and I certainly did not talk about it in any of my comments. I am sorry if he had a misconception of my comments in that case.

As I said during the course of my speech, there are always corrective measures to be taken. Corrective measures have been taken and they are ongoing. That is the course. Any organization that does not continually correct itself when problems arise is destined to failure. There is no question in my mind that these questions will be addressed. I would like to see the defence committee continue to work on this. There is a role for well-informed members of the House to do that sort of thing.

Let me clarify something for the hon. member. On the television show "Shirley" out of Toronto, people were invited to attend during the airborne issue. When they were on the program they felt as if they were in the middle of a military bashing show. The program was such that the person in charge of the show said that the military had been invited to appear on the show but obviously had not accepted the invitation because they are not present.

That is totally unfair to the military community because as everybody in the House knows, and Canadians know, military people in uniform cannot go on TV shows to talk about their views on military matters. That is not the Canadian tradition nor is it the rules of the game.

This person was doing a great injustice to our military, as was Norm Perry when he asked me that question about my home community of Petawawa. I am not going to let him forget it. I am not going to let the CBC forget it. Politicians are sometimes accused of not defending themselves and not speaking up. When we see something wrong, regardless of whether it will hurt our image from time to time, we have a responsibility to tell it as it is, whether they are the Norm Perrys or the Shirleys or whoever they are. Fairness is fairness and that is what must be built into the system.

They did not get a licence from the CRTC to convey unfairness and misinformation to the Canadian public. They should be talking about both sides of the issue. That is where the train went off the tracks. In Somalia the positive side was forgotten. All that mattered to the media was the issue that took place there. That is what I am emphasizing. I know the hon. member is very fair-minded and he will accept that explanation.

[Supply, March 23rd, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I want to say to the hon. member for Saanich-Gulf Islands who introduced this motion today that it reminds me of a number of years ago when, as part of a NATO parliamentary committee, I went to Europe. We visited Baden-Baden and the hon. member was base commander there and would you believe that he briefed us. I must say that the shoe has dropped today because this is the day I want to brief the hon. member and former commander of Baden-Baden.

The motion he has brought before this House today is all inclusive. Having read all the material on the inquiry that is coming up, it too is in depth. Today we have to keep our minds on the issues here and on the fallout from these issues.

I have been a strong supporter of the Canadian military community all my political life and before that because I was an educator on a DND base. I knew the families. Today some of my former students visit me with their children. They even visit me at times with their grandchildren, which sends a message of sorts.

The motion about the inquiry also brings to my mind the hype that was in the media about the Somalia incident and also the recent media hype regarding the airborne regiment. It also brings to my mind the very questionable handling by defence headquarters of the Somalia issue when it occurred.

Exactly two years ago today I had open heart surgery. Two years ago I did not know what was going on but I can say that I do know what is going on today. The situation is that Canada's military community is being hammered for particular incidents. The entire role the military community has played for years and is playing today is being ignored, not only to its detriment but to the detriment of this entire nation.

It is time that each and every one of us in this House and across Canada, yes including the national media, remembered what the Canadian military community has meant to Canada and to the world. We have not been the powerbrokers, but we have certainly been the diplomatic brokers, we have certainly been the communicators on the international scene. If we, as Canadians or the media, continue to downgrade and slam the military community of this country, this nation is going to lose an asset that will take years to rebuild.

Canada has put a positive step forward in many crises around the world. At this time military personnel are being tried in courts and they were tried by the mass media of this country. I must say that it is a time for us to take a look at the flip side of the coin as to what this really means to us as a nation and to each of us as Canadians.

The minister mentioned chain of command on many occasions. I want to see the chain of command totally included in the upcoming investigation. I want to see senior people in the defence department take a seat and answer questions.

I remember watching television in my hospital room two years ago and being so frustrated because I could not be in the House of Commons to defend those people I knew deserved to be defended. They are the mass numbers of people in our Canadian forces who did no wrong, who simply performed their duties and became victims of the desecration. That is what I fear is happening to our military community today.

The defence review committee did address some of the issues that are mentioned in this motion today. We addressed the discipline. We talked about morale. We talked about defence headquarters. I think we were dead-on with the issues we discussed in the defence review committee. Some of those have been addressed in the white paper. I expect they will continue to receive serious investigation and attention.

I mentioned the world image. I would also like to mention that Canada is not a military minded state. All of us know that and many Canadians express it. However, it can be when it must be, and it has been when it had to be.

I want to say something about the airborne regiment. There are many people in that regiment who are not to blame for what occurred. It was a handful of people. Massive destruction was caused by information in the media across this country which stressed the negative aspects while ignoring any positive aspects. That is what really started the whole ball rolling.

Let us go back to 1974 when the Canadian airborne regiment was in Cyprus on peacekeeping duty. Things were very tense over there at that time. The airborne regiment played a vital role in the following actions.

It successfully evacuated 386 tourists from the Ledra Palace Hotel under sporadic fire, and subsequently occupied the hotel and caused its neutralization in the conflict. It successfully evacuated 50 residents of the United Kingdom High Commission area under fire at that time. It preserved the integrity of the green line confrontation area under heavy fire. That is the line between the two combatants.

It assisted the contingent commander of DCOS and United Nations forces in Cyprus in arranging a ceasefire at Nicosia airport, subsequently occupied the airport and caused its neutralization. This was done by the Canadian airborne regiment, by the Canadian forces. It stopped the Turks at that time, as my hon. friend has said. During the protection of the UN base camp Kronborg, it saved the lives of two Canadians while under fire. It provided relief assistance to 600 refugees at the blue beret camp. It helped locate and recover 86 Canadians who were stranded in various parts of the island.

It assisted general relief and security of 200,000 refugees as part of the total United Nations forces in Cyprus effort.

Canadian casualties during the period from July 15, 1974 to the September 10, 1974 were 2 killed and 19 wounded.

In humanitarian operations it came to the relief of the United Kingdom High Commission and United States embassy. It went to the United States embassy on two occasion to help it out. The United States ambassador in 1974 was killed at his embassy in that local conflict. All other staff members were saved by the Canadians.

There are many other incidents too numerous to list which characterize an outstanding performance by the airborne regiment in Cyprus. Most of these actions were conducted under fire, most often while caught in a crossfire.

I want to bring other examples to the attention of the House that the Canadian forces have accomplished. This is what we are discussing today. That is why I am putting the emphasis on these things today. Let us in our discussions not destroy. Let us correct and get on with the useful and positive things our Canadian forces have been known to do and will continue to do in years to come.

There is a letter to the commander of the Canadian forces in Somalia:

On behalf of the members and the supporters of the United Somali Congress in general and the people of Hiran region in Somalia in particular and on my own behalf, I would like to extend to you and through you to members of your forces that have operated generally in Somalia and particularly to those troops of yours who have operated in Hiran region, our cordial thanks and gratitude for the humanitarian services you have rendered to the people of that region.

Please also convey my personal thanks and that of the people of Hiran region to the government and to the great people of Canada for what their forces have done here. As a matter of fact, the people of Hiran region did not know anything about Canada before your forces arrived in the city of Baledweine, and I want you to know that all the children of Hiran region are writing on the walls of the city the name of Canada with the charcoal.

In addition, we have received countless appeals from people of the region to ensure your stay. This shows how the people of Hiran were truly satisfied with your stay in the region and humanitarian assistance you extended to them.

In the other parts of Somalia where the ex-UNITAF and now UNOSOM troops of other nationalities were operating we did not receive from the natives anything rather than complaints.

Canada more than carried its load. I have a letter from a school system in the region which is really forward in its thanks to the Canadians for what they did with building elementary schools, high schools, helping teachers, helping people to farm. It is all here, written by Somalians to Canadians. It is not some press clipping that has been taken and written up today for today's consumption only.

The Hiran education committee states:

Really, we cannot forget the Canadian forces who came from far country to assist our people as humanitarian relief and security basis. The Canadian forces, besides the school repairing, are handling now the security problem in Hiran.

We are limitlessly grateful to how much Canadian forces have done to restore hope with responsibilities sharing our community, especially the students and teachers, endless jobs.

I remind the House and all Canadians that as the courts martial went on in Canada, as the inquiry now goes on in Canada, for heaven's sake remember what our forces did in their commitments to humanitarian measures and of peace in the world. Do not take the negative message that everyone is going to hear day in and day out. Let us act very responsible in this matter.

I want to quote partly from a letter by Gen. Johnston, commander of the U.S. Marine Corps in Somalia:

In those early days the Canadian forces had few vehicles and conducted many of their operations on foot under very trying climatic conditions. The temperatures were most often 100 degrees Fahrenheit and the constant blowing dust was a challenge to the best of soldiers. I was impressed then by the high level of motivation and professionalism exhibited during those early operations. Once the Canadian vehicles arrived, the regiment began widely expanding operations to the far reaches of the HRS boundary combining aggressive long range patrols observation posts and helicopter RECCE.

As an infantry officer, I had considerable appreciation for the skill with which they conducted business. The HRS Belet Ven has been a challenging operating area in part because of the close proximity of major militia formations of three of the most powerful faction leaders and because of its proximity to the Ethiopian border.

We have to remember what was there as their challenge at that time.

Our military community and capabilities are some of the greatest assets the country possesses. There will be, as in any organization, corrective steps from time to time. Do not throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. Let us not destroy our past history. These people have been strong underpinnings in our image around the world and at home.

I talked about the good relationships when the issue of the airborne regiment was on. I was interviewed on "Newsworld" by Norm Perry. Everyone knows Norm Perry. I talked about the great relationships that existed in my home community of Petawawa between the civilian community and the military community and how that worked in recreation, in business and in many ways.

"Are you trying to tell us the people of Petawawa believe in the incident that went on in Somalia? Are you telling us the people of Petawawa believed in the hazing incident?" I almost said to Norm Perry, an experienced reporter who should know better, that is the stupidest question I have been asked in my 30 years in public life.

The people of Petawawa do not agree with what went on any more than any other Canadian. I do not want my home community targeted by the incident. I want it to be targeted as a community which supports the military community in the good things that it does around the world, in the hours its people put in training and in the hours spent learning discipline. Discipline is very important in the forces. It is part of the important training.

We must remember those people are there to be assigned to difficult situations around the world when they arise.

Let the inquiry take its course but let us have the inquiry going into the headquarters of the military community, hauling those people out for questioning as well. We talk about the chain of command. Let us take the chain of command from top to bottom. Let us use that as a corrective measure. Let us get on with the positive things and remember that Canadians have done great things in the past. Let us encourage them to continue to do so in the future, not destroy them over one incident.

[Supply, March 23rd, 1995]

Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister a couple of questions. The motion today deals with the public inquiry.

That public inquiry will be centred on something that went wrong. As a result, the entire Canadian forces will be aimed at that during the course of the inquiry and that is sad for the forces as a whole.

I ask the minister today if he could explain to the House in very brief, general terms at least some of the positive things that went on in Somalia. I have a whole sheaf here listing things that the Canadian forces and the Canadian Airborne Regiment did during their posting in Somalia.

When the incident that received so much publicity happened in Somalia, in my opinion whether rightly or wrongly our own defence headquarters at the time handled it very poorly. The minister was not around. He was off enjoying a much more leisurely type of life in those days. However, he is here to see the end of this difficult era for the Canadian forces.

I am glad he mentioned General Jeffries and Colonel Peter Kenward. They are tremendous people. The forces have done a great job of coming back and correcting things that were wrong. However, in all this there has to be something positive.

I wonder if the minister would explain the role of the forces in Somalia; in schools, on roads, on helping them to build up their own police and their own security within their community. As he knows, his department has received many letters complimenting them on that very thing-

[Nuclear Reactor Finance Limitation Act, February 14th, 1995]

Yes, they are opposed to this.

If Ontario Hydro had used coal fired generating plants to produce the same amount of electricity as has been made by its nuclear plants to date, it would have released 9.9 million tonnes of acid gas into the atmosphere and produced 23.3 million tonnes of ashes.

All of the used fuel from Canada's nuclear plants would fit into one olympic size swimming pool. The coal ashes would require about 25,000 times as much space if coal had been used.

What is more, the nuclear fuel still has the potential for recycling to produce much more energy. A single uranium fuel bundle of about 10 centimetres in diameter and 50 centimetres long and weighing 25 kilograms produces as much electricity as 380 tonnes of coal or 1,800 barrels of oil. But the NDP wants to do away with this.

A large nuclear power reactor uses 150 tonnes of natural uranium per year, equivalent to two million tonnes of black coal or 10 million barrels of oil. Is that what the NDP stands for?

Since 1973 nuclear power plants worldwide have cut fossil fuels used to generate electricity by 17.6 billion barrels of oil worth $470 billion U.S., 2.2 billion tonnes of coal, 26 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. This is not a bad saving. It is not bad for conservation.

For medical applications almost every facet of modern medicine relies in some way on nuclear technology, from nuclear powered units in heart pacemakers to the sutures, surgical gloves and medical supplies that are sterilized by radiation and used in hospitals each day.

Millions of diagnostic procedures are carried out annually using nuclear technology. Cancer treatment systems using nuclear technology are used to save thousands of lives throughout the world. More than 1,300 of the world's cobalt therapy machines have been supplied by Canada. This figure represents close to 50 per cent of the total cobalt 60 therapy machines used to date.

Every year in 70 countries an estimated one-half million people are treated for cancer using cobalt therapy machines designed and built in Canada. Canada is a world leader in the production of cobalt 60. The country supplies more than 80 per cent of the world's total cobalt 60 used in medical and industrial applications. AECL was instrumental in the development of the cobalt 60 treatment for cancer.

Cobalt 60 is a human-made radioisotope produced using a nuclear reactor. Radioisotopes are used to help diagnose medical ailments and prescribe remedies. Such isotopes can detect how well organs are functioning, how well the body absorbs particular substances, and where tumours might be located. They have a range of valuable uses.

The hon. member has told this House of Commons and all Canadians that AECL is a waste of money. Are all these facts a waste of money? The hon. member should take a second look and do his homework.

I will end my comments here. I have much more I would like to say to educate the hon. member, but I will pay due respect to the Chair. My time is up.

[Nuclear Reactor Finance Limitation Act, February 14th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, I thought I was very kind because I have heard them called worse.

I want to remind the hon. member that Ontario Premier Bob Ray stood with the Prime Minister of Canada when we sold two reactors to China. He was so proud of our Canadian technology. I know he got into a bit of criticism over that, but he understands what research and development means and we respect him for that.

This bill will prevent the federal government from giving any financial assistance or technical support to nuclear reactor projects, except those making isotopes for medical use.

The hon. member made a great deal out of wasting money. Let me state one important point right off the bat, and this is for Canadian consumption in view of what the hon. member has said. From 1952 to 1992 the Canadian government invested $4.7 billion in Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. During the 30 year period from 1962 until 1992 the nuclear industry in Canada had a return for Canadians of $23 billion. Now, if we are going to get a return of $5 for every dollar invested, I do not think that is a bad investment.

NDP members have learned one thing. It took them some time to learn it, but they learned that isotopes are useful in medicine. Radioisotopes have various applications. One use is for sterilizing medical instruments. The hon. member does not seem to understand that cobalt 60 which is a byproduct from Ontario Hydro's power reactors is an isotope product. He wants to

destroy the reactors that produce it, yet he wants isotopes saved for medical purposes.

Come on, do your homework here. In their press conference material the hon. member and his colleagues do not want the production of isotopes for medical use interfered with, but in this bill they are proposing to cripple hydro power reactors which produce isotopes. What a contradiction.

Molly 99 which is a shortened version of Molybdenum 99 is produced at the NRU research reactor at Chalk River. This is a radioisotope product which is supplied to Nordion International Incorporated so that Canada can continue to control the 88 to 90 per cent of the world market we control today in isotopes. However, the NDP today wants to cripple some of the production facilities of isotopes while at the same time wanting to maintain isotope production. That sounds like the modern day rhetoric of the NDP.

I want to get on to some other very interesting things in reply to what the hon. member has said. Those are items about the economic factors.

In 1993, 50 per cent of Ontario's electricity came from nuclear generators and in New Brunswick, 35 per cent came from nuclear generators. In 1993, Ontario Hydro's published generating costs were 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour for fossil fuel and 5.4 cents per kilowatt hour for nuclear power. This is a 20 per cent advantage for nuclear power, yet the NDP calls that waste. We can understand that.

In terms of lifetime performance, five in the top 20 reactors in the entire world were Candu reactors made in Canada by Canadians. Canada's Pointe Lepreau reactor was the number two reactor in the entire world.

The automobile industry uses nuclear technology to test steel quality in cars. The paper industry uses it in the production of coded stock. Manufacturers use it to check for flaws in jet engines. Construction crews gauge the density of road surfaces and subsurfaces with it. Pipeline companies test the strength of welds, and oil and gas mining companies map the contours of test wells and mine bores with it. But NDP members want to do away with all this. They are very progressive in their thinking. It is no wonder they are sitting where they are today.

Atomic Energy of Canada Limited engineers developed the first commercial sterilizers in 1964. There are roughly 170 such units currently in use in 46 countries and 90 of them are Canadian designs.

Radioisotopes are used extensively by industry in quality control and process management. The petroleum industry uses them to test pipeline welds. The pulp and paper industry uses them to measure the thickness of paper. Many industries use them to trace the flows of material through process systems.

Imagine what would happen to our modern day industry if we destroyed the basis of all this. In environmental matters, the worldwide use of nuclear power plants results in lowered CO2 emissions globally by 1.5 billion tonnes a year.

[Nuclear Reactor Finance Limitation Act, February 14th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, well here we go again. The NDP party with the same bill it brought in before. The same old party. The same worn out rhetoric. The same wrong conclusions-

[Lieutenant-Colonel Peter Kenward, February 6th, 1995]

Mr. Speaker, Lieutenant-Colonel Peter Kenward, commander of the Canadian Airborne Regiment at Petawawa has been awarded the Order of Military Merit for his work as an outstanding soldier and officer.

This career infantry officer took over command of the Airborne Regiment in September 1993 and has done an excellent job in bringing good discipline, the usual high degree of training and dedication to the regiment.

For his outstanding and upbeat achievements, Colonel Kenward will receive the Order of Military Merit from the Governor General of Canada, particularly for his achievements in bringing the Canadian Airborne Regiment up to first class standards.

The incidents by a mere handful of the regiment that the mass media of this country has used to tear an outstanding Canadian military regiment apart occurred before Colonel Kenward took command.

We and all present members of the airborne congratulate him and thank him for his fine leadership and other qualities as an excellent officer, solider and Canadian.

[Petitions, December 15th, 1994]

Madam Speaker, I have two petitions signed by people from Deep River, Rolphton, Pembroke, Petawawa and other areas throughout the Ottawa Valley. They request that Parliament act immediately to extend protection to the unborn child by amending the Criminal Code to extend the same protection enjoyed by born human beings to unborn human beings.

[Petitions, December 13th, 1994]

Madam Speaker, I have a number of petitions to present.

The petitioners want Parliament to ensure the present provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibiting assisted suicide are enforced vigorously and to make no changes in the law that would sanction or allow the aiding or abetting of suicide or active or passive euthanasia.