Larry Bagnell

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I want to quickly comment on a previous speaker's suggestions regarding Kyoto. It was a great compliment to our government. He talked about wind and solar energy in China. As everyone knows, in the throne speech we increased our wind incentive four times, from 1,000 to 4,000 megawatts. We are pioneering in that area.

I spoke at the national Canadian Solar Industries Association this year as a guest speaker. It is very happy that we are providing it support. We actually announced at those meetings that we would make the rules even easier. We are also working with China. We are selling it clean coal technology and helping out in that area. I appreciate the member's support for the initiatives we are taking.

The member for Yellowhead spoke about neglect. I am not going to go over all the times that I mentioned the comprehensive government program, the mountain pine beetle initiative, and all the programs under it that we are dealing with. His party is coming onside this evening recognizing the problem and asking for action. That is good. We have been working with the B.C. government on this major program since 2002.

The member commented that we did not start working on it as early as we did on SARS. The federal government has been working on this since 1914. I think that is early enough.

He suggested that we were not treating it like a forest fire and that we should treat the mountain pine beetle like a forest fire. I do not think that is a very good idea. We are not going to treat the mountain pine beetle like a forest fire because we are not going to let them run all over the place.

In forest fire management, as everyone knows, there are some great benefits. Major parts of a province and territory are set aside to allow the natural process of forest fires to carry on so that there is regeneration and fertilization. When they are close to cities or people, that is the time to control it. There are huge tracts of land where we let them go. If he wants us to do that with the mountain pine beetle, we are not going to. We are going to continue our comprehensive set of programs with research work on federal land to deal with the mountain pine beetle, wherever it is.

Over and above the comprehensive slate of programs, in which specific activities, not just a generalization, would he like us to invest further funds?

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, the member might be right, because I was definitely looking at some gorgeous northern lights on Saturday night in my riding. They are spectacular.

However, I would suggest that he did not answer my two questions. The first question had to do with the experts that he quoted who suggested diversification. We have a Department of Western Diversification that was created for that. Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition constantly suggests that we should close that. He quotes an expert who says that we should do something and then the member lobbies against it.

My second question has to do with climate change. I asked the member a question on climate change because at least three of the members of his caucus tonight have suggested they have a better way. What better ways for reducing greenhouse gases does the member's party have? I would be happy to look at other ways to reduce them.

In relation to carbon credits and trading emission credits, one of the best ways to reduce greenhouse gases available is by collecting methane from landfills in developing countries. If a country is serious about reducing greenhouse gases that way and trade it off to a Canadian company that might otherwise go broke, if through their processes it has already done everything it can, as opposed to forcing them to do something that would make them totally uneconomic, they might as well reduce those greenhouse gases in another area where they can be reduced and trade those credits. However if the member has a better way I would like to know about it.

Finally, he suggested the increased figures of what we are doing. I have explained a comprehensive program where we are dealing with the items under the federal mandate. If he wants more funds I would like him to suggest some concrete proposals, something like the NDP did earlier this evening, as to what exactly we would use that extra money for over and above a comprehensive slate of programs that we have running right now under the mountain pine beetle initiative.

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the member for the first 75% of his speech. I thought it was very innovative and it was great to have some quotes, on which I was going to start my question but now have to start off with the last unfortunate part .

He mentioned that his party may be the first opposition party engaged but the reason we wanted this debate tonight is, as we have shown, that our party has a comprehensive set of programs that we have put in place. They are all in place. We are working on them and we will continue to do that. I am glad that his party is coming on side, pushing the problem that has to be worked on.

Unfortunately the opposition members have tried to put forward a myth by asking why we are not reacting like we did during the ice storm, SARS and these other major crises in Quebec and Ontario. As I have already said in my speech, I explained how we are dealing in the same way as we did in the ice storm, by reforesting woodlot owners.

A member from Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition asked tonight “Why do you not do the same as with SARS and put in $10 million for such a major crisis?” Well, we have put in $40 million, which is more than he mentioned in relation to SARS.

I will go back to my question on the thoughtful part of his presentation. It was great that he had these experts in the province directly engaged in the problem. They mentioned a number of items that he read out, such as community stability, research, rehabilitation and R and D. That is great because those are the things that we have outlined in our speeches tonight on exactly what we are doing.

I have outlined the four prong research program. I have talked about the rehabilitation that was done on the lands that we were allowed to, on all the various types of federal lands. I have talked about community stability as the third pillar in our research program.

My question is related to two other items that those experts mentioned, one being diversification and the other climate change. As the House knows, we have a Department of Western Diversification, but the party of the member opposite is always criticizing that department saying that we should not have that department giving out money to promote diversification, although that is what those experts he quoted asked that we should do.

My question will give the member a good opportunity to outline, as other members of his caucus have mentioned tonight, better ways for reducing greenhouse gases than the ones that we are proposing. What are those other ways of reducing greenhouse gases?

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, the member has asked an excellent question. He referred to that concept earlier.

I would like to point out two items that he did not mention in relation to this question. First of all, it was the part of the speech I have not had an opportunity to give yet, which talked about how we were dealing with the rest of the federal mandate.

I am interested in suggestions. We have talked about the federal lands, the federal science, the federal research, bringing people together in cooperation and working with the B.C. government. If there are other areas in the federal mandate that were not covered in our programs and which we are not doing, I would certainly be willing to hear them.

The other item is in relation to funds. The member is quite right about the magnitude of the problem and the magnitude of the effect on the B.C. economy. We have to look at the cost of the individual solutions. If $2 million is enough and it solves the problem, then all that is spent is $2 million.

I think the solution is the funds related to the things that are left undone. Hopefully tonight we will hear, as we have already heard from this corner of the House, some suggestions of where we need to invest more over and above the comprehensive programs that we put forward relating to the items that the federal government is allowed to deal with.

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, climate change is affecting my riding as well, which is why we keep encouraging the members opposite to help us with the climate change problem affecting species like this.

I cannot comment on a meeting I was not at or a trip I was not involved in. I am glad we are having this debate so that members can actually see the various initiatives the federal government is taking, the various plans we have made with the B.C. government in reaction to its approaches.

There are various areas of jurisdiction. There is work on a number of programs that the federal government has undertaken. We have not got to all the federal land yet. I will have to speak to that later. There are federal lands in national parks, on first nations reserves and on big federal forest tracts in B.C.

I outlined the four elements of the research agenda. We have a major plan, initiatives and programs in cooperation with B.C. If the members opposite are not willing to admit that all these things are underway, or they do not understand it, then we cannot go on from there with further suggestions. It would be interesting, as I have heard from this corner of the House, to hear some suggestions from the other corner of the House. Over and above that, once they admit all these things that we are doing, I would like to hear suggestions as to how we could move forward. I would certainly be the first one to pass those on to the department.

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, I am delighted that we are having this debate tonight so we can outline the comprehensive program we have put in place in conjunction with and working with the B.C. government over the last few years: the pine beetle initiative and various programs under that.

It should be noted that Canada's Constitution clearly indicates that the forest land management and indeed the management of all natural resources fall within the provincial mandate. Additionally, under British Columbia's forest legislation, as I said earlier, major forest licence holders are required to carry out reforestation at their own expense.

The role of the federal government in forest matters is confined to the areas of science and technology, aboriginal affairs, national reporting, consensus building, international trade and relations and the management of federal lands. However, it should also be noted that the federal government is putting a large effort toward assisting the province of British Columbia, while staying within the federal mandate, in the mountain pine beetle battle.

In 2002 a $40 million six year program, the mountain pine beetle initiative, was introduced. This initiative complements the province's mountain pine beetle activities and is consistent with the federal mandate, a principle that was established at the outset of discussions with B.C. officials. One would think from listening to the debate tonight that those discussions had never occurred, but they did.

The mountain pine beetle initiative includes a suite of programs assisting beetle control and forest rehabilitation of federal lands: first nations reserve lands, federal parks and three large blocks of federal forest lands, as well as private non-industrial forest lands.

The member for Cariboo—Prince George has been quoted in the media as saying that the mountain pine beetle outbreak is as much a natural disaster as the Quebec ice storms and he feels the federal government should be providing funding to rehabilitate Crown forests that are being attacked by the beetle. That has been said this evening as well.

The beetle infestation is huge and the situation is serious, but whatever the government does must be consistent with its mandate. It should be remembered that in the ice storm situation, to which the hon. member has referred, federal funding did not go to rehabilitate provincial crown lands, but to assist private landowners, as is being done in the current situation in B.C.

The mountain pine beetle initiative was developed as a response to a provincial request for federal programming in this area. It also includes a research program focused on reducing current infestation impacts and the risk of future beetle epidemics. This meshes nicely with the province's 10 year wood salvage plan.

I want to mention that under the $40 million initiative, there are a number of programs. Some are research and some are reforestation, as I have just mentioned. All those programs are working and in place.

In that plan, the research initiative has four sections to it. The first is to estimate the commercial lifespan of beetle killed timber. The second is to how best utilize the large volume of dead timber, and that falls in line with the industrial strategy ideas that were raised earlier this evening. The third is the research we are doing on the impacts of the timber flow changes on forest dependent communities, of which there are a number in B.C. and other parts of Canada. The NDP raised tonight the need for us to address those communities, and we are doing that. The fourth idea, in which I know the NDP would be interested in, is our research on the ecological impacts of managing the beetle killed stands. The NDP raised that issue tonight.

The B.C. ministry of forests recognizes that mountain pine beetle initiative research is addressing the high priority information requirements and that this effort is supplying critical information to the province in support of its 10 year plan. Additionally, federal officers have been located in the beetle epidemic region of Prince George and Kamloops to facilitate the delivery of the mountain pine beetle forest programs. I mentioned that earlier this year.

Perhaps the member for Cariboo—Prince George is unaware that in his own riding of Prince George the mountain pine beetle initiative has awarded nearly $1 million in funding to research scientists at the University of Northern British Columbia and the B.C. ministry of forests.

This funding is to produce answers to research priorities identified by hundreds of forest land managers during a series of regional forums, including three sessions in Prince George. These forums were undertaken by the Canadian Forest Service to ensure the mountain pine beetle initiative's research agenda would not only be scientifically sound, but also focused on the information needs of those directly battling the beetle. That falls in line with what a number of people raised tonight about local consultations.

Scientists from the University of Northern British Columbia and the Canadian Forest Service are working together to discover, among other things, the dispersal patterns of beetle populations, the factors contributing to the rate of decay in beetle killed timber, the hydrological changes in forest stands killed by the beetle, and at what point a beetle-attacked stand no longer contributes to the outbreak expansion. This research will help forest managers decide when and where to harvest during outbreak conditions.

These projects illustrate how federal government researchers and university researchers can partner together to deal with the impacts of the current outbreak and to use that knowledge to reduce the risk from future forest pest epidemics.

I say future epidemics because we are quite certain they will occur. The mountain pine beetle is a natural part of the pine forests of western North America. As a natural part of these ecosystems, it is well adapted to these forests and from time to time its population explodes.

The federal government's experience with the insects goes back to 1914. Over the decades, through federal-provincial cooperation, many outbreaks of this pest have been tracked. However, the current outbreak has spread across an area approaching 10 million hectares, an area larger than New Brunswick. It is by far the largest mountain pine beetle outbreak on record.

Complete control of the mountain pine beetle is not possible given the scale of the infestation and the abundance of mature lodgepole pine, the insect's food source. The only thing that will bring it under control is a period of winter cold, minus 40 for a number of days, or an unseasonable fall or spring cold snap.

Other troubling aspects of the current outbreak are the early scientific results that indicate mountain pine beetle now inhabits areas where it was not previously found. It is thought this beetle migration is some of the first evidence on climate change actually occurring in Canada. The outlook is for increased beetle spread as climate change models indicate a reduced likelihood of prolonged winter cold necessary to terminate the infestations.

There is no quick or easy fix for this situation. The hon. member is greatly mistaken when he alleges that the federal government is not engaged in the issue. The Canadian Forest Service of Natural Resources Canada is deeply involved in this situation and is working in close cooperation with the province, having put financial resources and some of the best forest researchers in the country and perhaps in the world to work on this issue. The results of their research provide a sound base to the mitigation policies and programs implemented by forest managers and planners.

The B.C. ministry of forests is well aware of the contributions made by the Canadian Forest Service and the Government of Canada in this situation. Those valuable contributions should not be dismissed.

I want to talk for a few minutes now on the effects on the little guy who has been caught in this issue, particularly in British Columbia, although the pine beetle has spread to Alberta as well.

Many Canadians, specifically those in British Columbia, draw their income directly from the forest or in activities related to the forest. Commercial forestry firms, many with high technology mills across the country, produce products for domestic and export markets, contributing some $40 billion to Canada's export earnings.

There are many others, individuals or small groups, who operate on private woodlots often not as visible, but who are playing a strong role in dealing with the mountain pine beetle epidemic in B.C. They are neighbours to the crown lands managed and protected by the Government of B.C. and the forest licensees. They are interested in being good neighbours in joining the effort to respond to the natural occurrence of the beetle. I want them to know that the government has not forgotten them.

A six year, $40 million initiative was announced in October 2002. Within that initiative is a major program designed to directly assist the efforts of private woodlot operators to work on beetle control and on post-beetle rehabilitation of their forest lands.

As I said, I am interested in drawing the attention of the House to the support for British Columbia's private land owners in this important area. In addition, there is the mountain pine beetle initiative and forest rehabilitation on first nation reserves.

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, no one from this side of the House has ever suggested the B.C. Liberals should do anything different.

All night long I have been trying to get some members from Her Majesty's loyal opposition to buy into Kyoto or the mechanisms under Kyoto to reduce greenhouse gases. As everyone has admitted, a cold spell is the only way of biologically defeating this bug, which has been determined by scientists. However, they disagree. They say that they have something better. I would be delighted to hear in their coming speeches this evening what better ways they have of reducing greenhouse gases, other than the ones proposed.

They were complaining about carbon credits. The best way to reduce greenhouse gases quickly is in one industry to get more bang for the buck rather than put in another industry that does not have much room to move.

I know they are very supportive of Kyoto and greenhouse gas reductions. In some areas we have put a lot of effort into solar and renewable energies, like ethanol and wind, but they are not available all the time. They are intermittent. In some areas of the world and in some parts of Canada nuclear energy is very low in greenhouse gases. Would the member comment on nuclear energy as one of the methods in a combined comprehensive strategy to reduce greenhouse gases in some parts of the world?

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to compliment the member for Burnaby—Douglas and I mean that sincerely. It was one of the best speeches in a take note debate that I have heard because he offered some positive and constructive solutions that just have not been here tonight as my colleague mentioned earlier. There were no ideas coming forward over and above the number of programs that we already have in place. I highly compliment the member for that. It was certainly something to think about and I hope the Canadian Forest Service people and the minister's staff are listening to those ideas.

I would like to ask the member two questions. First, I believe his colleague sort of chastized the British Columbia government for something related to budgets and reforestation whereas, from the other side of the House, we have been hearing all night about the masterful work of the B.C. government. We are working with the B.C. government. We think it has a good plan and we are working closely with it with our plan in order to do our part of the job. Could he expand a bit more about the role of the B.C. government in relation to the lodgepole pine?

Second, by B.C. law, large forest companies have the responsibility for reforestation. When he was talking about the tax revenues of the provincial government, I want to ensure he was not suggesting that the provincial government use those tax revenues to do the reforestation that the large B.C. forest companies should be doing.

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Madam Chair, I was delighted to hear both members from the opposition say that a dramatic temperature fall is the only way of actually eliminating this. They also both acknowledged that there has not been one for a number of years and not likely to be one. The same is true in my riding. We have not had 40° below for an extensive period in White Horse for some time. That is not the only area it is affecting.

In Yukon we have the spruce bark beetle, Dendroctonus rufipennis, if anyone wants to know the name. As the House knows, the Canadian Forest Service, just like this one, has been working on many of these forest pests for years.

The scientists have almost unanimously come out and said that we need to take steps toward climate change, which is causing these problems with the various species. For the member's constituency, which is very close to my area in the north where climate change is having more of an effect, will he help encourage his party to come on side on a number of the initiatives that we are taking, the $3 billion worth of initiatives, including signing Kyoto, to reduce the impacts of climate change?

[Forestry, December 13th, 2004]

Madam Chair, I am glad the member is here and, as I said earlier, to learn of the many things that have been done for a number of years by the Canadian Forest Service. The minister outlined these. I think that is the point the minister was also making in defining the many action plans.

Since the member talked about communities, I am sure she is delighted that one of the action plans is the research that is being done on the effects to communities and what we can do for them.

I would like to ask the member what some of the components of the industrial strategy she was suggesting related to forestry might be. All the mills in the area are working cutting the timber infected with the mountain pine beetle. The mills are filled to capacity doing this work. What types of elements or other things in this industrial strategy would she suggest?