Fisheries committee  Yes. Mr. Bevan testified about what's been happening in terms of perceived violations. You were referring to this. What we have to bear in mind is that you can't assume that what happened in 2007 and 2008 will continue for the next five or ten years. We've been here before. Following the turbot war, the turbot incident in 1995, when Canada and the EU came eye to eye, there was an improvement.

Fisheries committee  You've raised a very important point, Mr. Stoffer. If you go back to the presentation you were given earlier this week about the objectives of this NAFO reform process, there was one page that said “stated objectives”, and the first objective was to protect Canadian shares. Nowhere on that page was there any reference to conservation, or putting in place mechanisms to assist in rebuilding fish stocks.

Fisheries committee  Mr. Stoffer, I had intended last night to check the scientific council reports to update myself on this topic, but I didn't. I am aware that these stocks have been under siege for quite some time. There have been moratoria in effect for many of them. There has been some recovery--the yellowtail flounder, for example, is a case where I think there has been some recovery.

Fisheries committee  It is certainly necessary to have some form of management regime in a place outside of 200 miles. We've seen the pillaging that occurred under an ineffective NAFO organization. We need an improved management regime that includes the provisions Mr. Applebaum and I have mentioned--and not just us, by the way.

Fisheries committee  I am not totally familiar with the process you're referring to, Mr. Byrne. I'm aware of the more general Marine Stewardship Council certification process. It's becoming the interest of industry around the world to enter into certification processes to establish that fisheries are sustainable because of market considerations down the road in terms of consumers everywhere.

Fisheries committee  On my comments about the process leading up to the result and the role of various people in that process, first of all I would make a clarification. I didn't question the ability of the negotiators. I suggested they were under a compulsion to arrive at an agreement. Given that they couldn't walk away from the negotiating table, they had to achieve an agreement in a certain timeframe, and they had to agree to things in order to achieve that agreement.

Fisheries committee  It's very relevant.

Fisheries committee  I worked for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or its predecessors, for 34 years. I started my career as a biological scientist under the Fisheries Research Board in St. John's, Newfoundland. Then in the late 1970s, around the time of the extension of the fisheries jurisdiction, I came to Ottawa and I was director of fisheries research for a while.

Fisheries committee  You want to know the latter part of my career. After being on the fisheries side for a while, I was assistant deputy minister of science from 1986 to 1988. For four years I was away from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, writing a book on the management of marine fisheries in Canada and doing a Ph.D. at McGill University.

Fisheries committee  Not as tired as I was.

Fisheries committee  Shame on you, Mr. Member. Shame on you and shame on the people at DFO who provided you with that question.

Fisheries committee  I will answer the question, but it's a shame that the question should be asked on this topic. I was assistant deputy minister of science from 1986 to 1988. I returned to that position in 1994. Before returning to that position in 1994, I worked with the establishment, under Mr.

Fisheries committee  I have 35.

Fisheries committee  It's not the first time I've been admonished by a chair of a committee to be short. Yes, Mr. Blais, they are sovereign states. And you're right, you have to try to achieve some kind of agreement. The reason we're now in this situation where you have this proposed amendment package before you is that there was an aura of desperation, the desperation being that we need an agreement at any cost.

Fisheries committee  Thank you, Mr. Blais. You're correct. The old NAFO did not work, and I see no reason to think, based on what we have in front of us in this amendment package, that the amended NAFO will work. The reason I say that is part of the reason the old NAFO, the existing NAFO, didn't work was, number one, this objection procedure.