Justice committee  There are a number of reasons why it's so inadequate, and I've touched on a number of them. The burden of proof is very high. It only deals with specific circumstances. You also have to prove intent. As I recall, in the Ahenakew case that was exactly where there was a significant problem.

Justice committee  It was the evidentiary burden beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to incite hate. There are other problems. In subsection 13(1) it has to undermine public peace, so to speak. There are problems in subsection 13(2), where you have to get the Attorney General's consent. As Ms.

Justice committee  I'm not familiar with the history back in 1977.

Justice committee  In fairness, perhaps Ms. Hunter can assist me with this.

Justice committee  I appreciate that.

Justice committee  It's not really a yes or no question.

Justice committee  No, it's not a yes or no question. There are certain sections that are involved with this, but perhaps Ms. Hunter can expand on that.

Justice committee  We look at historical data and we do not ignore it. We do not allow history to repeat itself—

Justice committee  Well, I will simply respond to that in this way. The purpose of this act is to help prevent the discriminations, to help encourage equality and to foster tolerance. There is an educative element to the Human Rights Commission, to the Human Rights Tribunal, to help change these kinds of behaviours.

Justice committee  I think history is our best teacher to be able to answer that particular question. When hate messages are allowed to proliferate unchecked and without any accountability whatsoever, we see the effects—

Justice committee  Well, the Criminal Code, that's a whole other discussion. I have a question whether the Criminal Code can adequately keep in check a lot of the matters we're dealing with. Much of the speech is allowed unchecked, we would respectfully submit, without section 13.

Justice committee  The empirical data is shown throughout history.

Justice committee  We've already seen a significant increase, and we've already heard that from other submissions, with the incredible increase of what is proliferated on websites and so forth. We can only expect that it will increase if continued to be left completely unchecked.

Justice committee  The major concern is that this kind of a speech can incite to hate. It has to be looked at objectively: it will reasonably incite people to hate or to show contempt for the specified group. That is the concern. There doesn't have to be a victim yet. The whole purpose of these provisions is to prevent the abuses from happening, preventing there being victims in the first place.

Justice committee  This is not a pre-crime. This isn't a crime. This is a provision in the Human Rights Act to try to correct discriminatory behaviour that undermines the dignity and respect for every individual and undermines equality in our society.