Public Accounts committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Public Accounts committee  They may have some conclusions they can give you that they weren't too clear about last time around. Good luck with your work.

Public Accounts committee  Well, when I first saw the Federal Accountability Act I ventured an opinion--it may have been to this committee or to another--that probably a more experienced government wouldn't have put all those things in it, because some of them are more useful than others. It's a judgment call.

Public Accounts committee  I think the way to get the answer to that question is to ask the blue ribbon panel. This is a very complicated area. I can't give you an answer saying to wipe out every third regulation that was passed, or take out all the ones that have to do with audit. It's more complicated than that.

Public Accounts committee  No, Mr. Chairman. I think the committee is best placed to judge its own future. I said earlier that you might find it interesting to talk to the blue ribbon panel when your schedule permits that.

Public Accounts committee  I'll confess to being wary about nostalgia. I can remember people who said things really worked well on the Treasury Board 35 years ago; that was a golden age. I was in the Treasury Board 35 years ago and I can tell you it wasn't a golden age. Whenever something gets far enough in the past, one can lend it greater quality than it may deserve.

Public Accounts committee  Yes, the good old days, actually, weren't all that great. At least some of them that I lived through weren't all that great. Having said that, I would go on more substantively to say that it's important to focus on the kinds of problems that you see in the system today, and above all, what you as a committee can do that would be most conducive to creating a culture of responsible conduct, a culture of concern for the public.

Public Accounts committee  I can see the point of that, but it gets a little more complicated when there's a disagreement between a minister and the Comptroller General, who is an official. Then the minister is ultimately accountable for what happens, including things having to do with rolling money into another fiscal year.

Public Accounts committee  I think as a general rule that's a good principle. It would be a foolhardy deputy minister who got an opinion from his or her chief financial officer that said, “You can't do that” and said, “I'm going to do it anyway.” That's a recipe for real trouble. You don't ordinarily do that; in fact, you shouldn't do it at all.

Public Accounts committee  All I'll say is I spent nearly five years dealing with the complexities of Indian Affairs, and it looks a lot easier from the outside than it does from the inside.

Public Accounts committee  I think you're now down to an average of three years, which means that some people spend a lot more than three, even if there are less, so three years as an average is a lot better than it used to be. Whether you can make it even better...you might be able to. Just before we conclude this exchange, I want to say that I wrote down that phrase, “root out fear”, because you've said in three words what I tried to say in my opening statement.

Public Accounts committee  I'd have to think for a bit. In any working relationship, between a director general and an ADM, between a regional director and a director of operations, or between a deputy and a minister, day in and day out you don't see things identically. You argue it out. You're in the Department of Transport and you've got a problem with grain transportation.

Public Accounts committee  It was probably somewhat longer. If you want to go back a long way.... Every time I have occasion to drop in on the Deputy Minister of Finance, which I don't do very often any more, I marvel at the row of pictures on the wall of people who served as Deputy Minister of Finance between, if I recall, 1870 and 1891—you know, 20 or 25 years in a job.

Public Accounts committee  If I may, Mr. Chairman, I'd actually like to deal with a little bit more than just the accounting officer.

Public Accounts committee  The problem that I and many people, many former officials, had with Justice Gomery's second report was that it said that public servants should have, and have, a separate constitutional personality from the government the voters send them. Now, the basic principle in government, as it functions, is elected people are boss.