Human Resources committee  Thank you. First of all, I'm on record as having real difficulties with the LICO measure. I don't regard that as a very useful technical tool for measurement. I think that if we're interested in a genuinely relative measure, we ought to use something like 50% or 60% of median after-tax income or some of the social exclusion measures that have been used in Great Britain.

Human Resources committee  I would agree with the previous speaker. I think a national approach is preferable. This is a problem because of the difficulties we've had in the past keeping our commitments. Canadians are watching, and I think other people in the world are watching. We need to take this to the national level, ideally with the cooperation of the provinces.

Human Resources committee  Sure. I more or less said it already, but let me just repeat. The one thing I would urge you to do is to fulfill the promise you made on child poverty, and particularly the promise you made at Copenhagen when you signed that declaration. Do it right, with clear definitions, goals, targets, timelines, metrics, and accountability.

Human Resources committee  Who was that addressed to?

Human Resources committee  I have only taken a brief look at John Richards' report and I did note the conclusion you mention. I don't have a lot of comment on that. Quite frankly, I have not done a lot of work on the policy side, looking at connections between cuts or increases in various government programs and the relationship between those and poverty.

Human Resources committee  I haven't. Any use of a particular portion of the distribution of income would be a relative measure, regardless of where it's set. There is a variety of them out there. Typically they would be a percentage of median income—that's what's used in Europe—typically 60% of median after-tax income.

Human Resources committee  Thank you very much. It's just about a minute. I mentioned the technical challenges. Many of them have to do with issues surrounding unreported income; additional issues relate to data and Statistics Canada. I'll simply refer you to my latest paper, which is due to be published next month.

Human Resources committee  Thank you. The sentiments that Mr. Martin read out are familiar to all of us who work in poverty. Those sentiments are a characterization of absolute poverty as well as relative poverty. I've said that we ought to make that distinction; we ought to measure both types. There is great value in measuring both types.

Human Resources committee  Yes, I can hear you. Thank you. I'm delighted to speak with you today on this very important topic. As you may know, I've done considerable research on the definition and measurement of poverty over the past 15 years and I'm hoping that research will help inform the issues you have before you at the present time.

Human Resources committee  Not to any extent; I think I chose those words carefully and obviously meant them. I'm a scientist. I'm interested in measuring things. I think it's an important precondition to any kind of intelligent policy, so I'll stand by those words.

Human Resources committee  I'll have to say a couple of things about that. One is that I don't study the dynamics of poverty. Other individuals have done that; I don't have the database resources to do it. My understanding is, from U.S. studies and studies in other countries—and also in Canada, although using the LICO, which I have difficulties with—that the majority of poverty is transitory.

Human Resources committee  You asked me about the role of government, and I actually haven't written a lot about that. I don't presume to talk about policy too much. I would say that I don't disagree at all with Ross Finnie. I think there are policy experts out there. There are people who do research on what works and what doesn't work.

Human Resources committee  I've written about that consistently over the years. I do have some difficulties with it. I think that it was designed in the sixties as a measure of low income. It is complicated. It's very difficult to explain. I would say that there are only a few people who could explain it articulately in Canada.

Human Resources committee  Yes, thank you. Very briefly, first of all, I'm not here to disagree with anybody. I really appreciate the comments that are made. I am not in favour of any kind of paralysis. I think we need to take poverty seriously. There are people who are really disadvantaged in Canada. So I want to make that clear.

Human Resources committee  Thank you very much for the invitation to speak to the committee today. I very much appreciate this opportunity to discuss some really critical issues with you. The federal government spends billions of dollars every year on policies and programs directed toward poverty, and I include here transfers to the provinces, some of which is used for social assistance and housing and other programs.