Status of Women committee  I'll chase you if the bells ring. How's that? I can do that. Believe me. I want to thank you very much for inviting the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies. As many of you are aware, we have members across the country, and we work with women who have been marginalized, women who are victimized, women who are criminalized, and women who are institutionalized.

Status of Women committee  Okay. I'll go to my recommendations. We would suggest, in terms of violence issues in particular, that violence against women has yet to be taken seriously. We already have legislation that says we are not supposed to have violence against women. We already have legislation in the form of the charter that mandates equality for women.

Public Safety committee  From talking to staff here as well as prisoners, there's a lack of access to programs, a lack of availability. They may be offered for short periods of time, and as Mr. Grabowsky has said, a very small number of prisoners may have access. It's interesting; although Mr. Head reported the numbers have not gone up significantly overall, they certainly are continuing to grow for women.

Public Safety committee  Well, it's because the numbers have increased astronomically. In fact, I was walking into the prison and luckily there was a staff member here, because the incredible expansion is such that trying to get around the new construction meant that I wasn't even sure how to get into the institution.

Public Safety committee  Unfortunately, no. In my 23 years in this job and working with women in the prison system, I find the resources are more diminished. As has already been presented when you had discussions in the House, I'm understanding something in the neighbourhood of over $100 million has been spent on drug interdiction techniques and processes.

Public Safety committee  Unfortunately, being in isolation usually exacerbates the mental health issue. Often the treatment is to use medication, because there is so little in terms of other kinds of interventions, even though, as I mentioned, some of the most recent research, and some that Catherine Latimer spoke about happening in both the corrections and addictions areas, is showing that the most effective means are social interventions, providing support for people, not putting them in isolation, and providing opportunities for them to do other things.

Public Safety committee  Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting us. I also want to thank the Edmonton Institution for Women for allowing me to do this. I'm here today for one of my visits and they were kind enough to open up their video conference process so that I could be here. It seems appropriate to be having this discussion from a prison.

Public Safety committee  Yes, I can, thank you.

Justice committee  I hope I've been clear that I would think so. I don't think that's part of the bill at this stage, and I just want to pick up on the last point, the question that was raised earlier and the point that Michèle Audette raised, which is that when we fought initially to have women decriminalized—and I'm talking now back before the last set of amendments to the prostitution laws—we argued that in fact women should be decriminalized.

Justice committee  While I think the notion of choice is often fallacious, I'm prepared to accept that there are women who argue that they are making choices. I don't think a position of decriminalizing the women interferes with those women at all. Certainly the evidence in other jurisdictions has supported that, and I think you've heard ample evidence of that.

Justice committee  I can't see how it could be any more dangerous than it already is for most of the women. Certainly for the women that I've lived, worked, and walked with for the last 30 years it couldn't be more dangerous than it already is. As I mentioned, many of the women we work with, particularly those who have already been criminalized, are being bought and sold not just for sex, but also by men who want to degrade and abuse them—everything from punching, to electrocuting, and to murder.

Justice committee  Thank you for clarifying that. I was making comments in addition to what I had already said. We do not support anything in the bill that would criminalize women—none of the provisions that would cause the women to potentially be criminalized.

Justice committee  I hope we've been clear. The key point is that the message is being sent very clearly that it is not okay to buy and sell women, one. But what will help are the broader initiatives, as well, that we talked about—the need for the funding, the need for other supports, the need for a substantive focus on equality.

Justice committee  Well, because there has been no evidence.... Certainly we've have had an abundance of legislation, especially recently, that has increased the numbers of mandatory minimum sentences, which disproportionately do impact women—indigenous women, those with mental health issues—and we don't want to see anything that will contribute to that.

Justice committee  Sure. Thank you for asking. I thought I was clear. If I wasn't clear enough—I think I've been very clear in every presentation I've made on prostitution—this is not a legal response only. It has to be married with the economic supports. We talked about a guaranteed livable income.