Citizenship and Immigration committee  No, it is chief superintendent.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Human smuggling is a global problem that is controlled by organized crime. Our experience has demonstrated that human smuggling involves a network of networks. Globally placed individuals seeking to enter into Canada can be recruited through a number of facets. When we talk about a human smuggling organization and a human smuggling venture, particularly by sea, it's a very complex venture.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I must distinguish between human smuggling and human trafficking. Human smuggling involves an arrangement where someone pays for passage. Human trafficking is where people are coerced and forced for either sexual or labour exploitation. In some cases it can transition from human smuggling to human trafficking, when individuals who are smuggled are indebted to criminal organizations and still owe a debt.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Yes.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I think the important thing is that's where we would have to rely on other provisions, either of the Criminal Code, or we can actually engage criminal organization provisions where we can actually go after their proceeds of crime--those types of investigations. So there exists the opportunity to use the Criminal Code, which, for instance, for fraud has penalties up to 14 years in prison and so forth.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  In terms of the fraud, under the Criminal Code they are very serious offences, and I think the penalty section carries--

Citizenship and Immigration committee  The offences the RCMP deals with, primarily frauds and so forth, are very serious, and we would invest the resources in pursuing the cases internationally.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  There are a large variety of ways in which these offences are reported. It could be through somebody who has been victimized themselves or through somebody who knows there has been a victim, somebody who is aware that someone has been victimized, but they may be intimidated to come forward because they might be concerned about what may happen to them if they do report the crime.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  It's interesting that you raise China, because we actually have an MOU with the Ministry of Public Security in China, which covers offences under immigration. That was recently signed. And there is a Canada-China working group, which both Peter and I sit on. We meet either annually or biannually to discuss these and other types of transnational organized crime issues.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  We have a couple of MOs, I guess we would call them, for how these consultants work. There are cases of people knowingly working with corrupt consultants to get expedited access or to get access to Canada that they wouldn't otherwise have. In one case we're investigating, the method of operation is that these people aren't living in Canada, but the crooked consultant is actually providing the necessary appearance of residency in Canada by engaging people to conduct credit card transactions on the individual's credit card.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I don't know the legal rationale for it, but in terms of the practical application, when we're talking about a summary conviction offence, where the penalty would potentially be fairly minor, to now invest police resources in an investigation that may be dated and to find evidence that may be up to ten years old would be very difficult.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  If I may follow up, one element of evidence is having somebody who will actually testify. In other cases we could rely heavily on document evidence, video evidence, records that they keep in their computers. We could use undercover techniques to infiltrate and actually put forward an undercover operator as a victim--

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I don't have that statistic.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I would mislead the committee.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Yes, we'll provide that.