Public Safety committee  Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I said, I always appreciate the opportunity to meet before this committee. This has been an indulgence, so thank you for the time and thank you for the questions. I thought after 12 years I wouldn't feel quite so challenged, but you held up your end of the bargain, too, so I appreciate it.

Public Safety committee  Sure. Thank you for that indulgence, Chairman. This is a very important point, and it ties into your colleague's question about the overrepresentation of indigenous women, for example. It's very difficult to hold in your mind the Supreme Court decisions in Gladue and Ipeelee, which talk about individualized sentencing based on somebody's specific life history and mandatory minimum penalties.

Public Safety committee  There are segregation practices around the world that I think we can learn from. I think that the Correctional Service of Canada has demonstrated that a more rigorous application of the existing legal and policy framework results in fewer individual placements into segregation. Segregation placements this year are down without legislative guidance, but I think to sustain that we need legislative guidance.

Public Safety committee  Yes. We have a framework now around things like conflict. We have policies that require you to assess and reassess. It's called the situation management model. If you're going to intervene with a use of force, you always start off with the least intervention that you think is necessary and you escalate only after reassessing based on what's happening.

Public Safety committee  We think there's an opportunity for a truly made in Canada solution that might be in the vanguard of what's available.

Public Safety committee  My job is really an extension of the rule of law when it comes to correctional practice. I know you don't want to engage in the Hart-Devlin debate about the role of morality in law, but the role of the office is one of accountability and assurance to Canadians that the Correctional Service of Canada is conducting itself consistent with its legal and policy framework.

Public Safety committee  It's a fact that the population has increased by 5%.

Public Safety committee  There's no evidence of that, particularly when you consider that the crime rate was actually going down while that population increase was occurring, and the population increase seems to be more tied to policies around release than around new warrants of committal for new crimes.

Public Safety committee  Yes.

Public Safety committee  The fact that people have been hurt by crime is not in dispute, certainly not by me. The question that I thought you were asking is whether there's a relationship from increased incarceration to increased public safety. There's a tremendous body of academic literature that would suggest that there is no straight-line relationship between increased incarceration and increased public safety.

Public Safety committee  I think that you're largely speaking about the role of the courts in coming to a determination of guilt and imposing a sentence. It's not the role of the Correctional Service of Canada to add to that sentence.

Public Safety committee  It's to administer it, and then prepare people for release.

Public Safety committee  Sure. The principles are clearly set out in the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.

Public Safety committee  Certainly, we saw a flurry of activity in the aftermath of the death of Ashley Smith, for example, when it comes to some women's corrections issues, some policy clarification around the use of segregation, and some access to mental health treatment. We've seen some other progress that has been driven by other boards of investigation and inquiries, and findings in court.

Public Safety committee  I don't want this to sound flippant at all, but it reminds me of what they say about advertising, “repetition, repetition, repetition, and colour”. It's important to very dogged in this work. The issues are big. It's a large organization. You may think you've addressed a problem because you've resolved an issue at one institution in one corner of the country, but that problem has probably been manifesting in another institution in another corner of the country, and yet you have to chase it down.