Government Operations committee  Madam Chair, the very high-level estimate could be in the $150 million range. There are many assumptions that go into it. It's not a $5 million or $10 million exercise, so it's not insignificant. But we're managing a $200 billion organization, so you have to put things into context.

Government Operations committee  We're going to be looking later on to see the study. The study gave us some kind of timeline of five years to do it on a progressive basis. So in five years everybody could be on an accrual basis from both a reporting basis and also an appropriation basis. The question is also cultural change.

Government Operations committee  We're going to be referring to this study, which was done by an external consultant, in the presentation.

Government Operations committee  Essentially, the model at the present is a mix, where we do have a functional relationship with the Comptroller General and a hierarchical relationship with the deputy minister. You have a matrix kind of relationship, so there are some problems. My people talk with the chief audit executive of every department to make sure that when we need to know it, we know it.

Government Operations committee  Thank you very much for the question. As I mentioned last time, together with my colleague, we just received the recent study on that issue. We must brief the president to review the various concepts, and this committee--and I believe the public accounts committee--has decided to have a review in the fall so that the president will be able to take a position at that time.

Government Operations committee  I am Charles-Antoine St-Jean, Comptroller General.

Government Operations committee  Yes, thank you very much, Mr. President. And thank you very much for the question. Essentially, as the president said, the plan is to rebuild the Office of the Comptroller General to what it was back in 1993. In mid-2004 we started with an office that had a complement of about 60 or 65 people.

Government Operations committee  Essentially, every department is accountable to put in place that internal audit function; however, there's a functional relationship with the Comptroller General to make sure that the same process and level of quality is executed throughout the system. But every deputy minister in their department is accountable to put in place the internal audit function so that they can be accountable for the management of their department--to make sure that there's quality control, to make sure we have the right people in place, the right process, and the right tools.

Government Operations committee  There is a question of lack of understanding. When I speak with my deputy minister and other colleagues, I tell them that, within a few years, they will be signing an internal control statement. They don't jump for joy. However, that's what is asked of private sector executives.

Government Operations committee  The study on budget allocations, which was conducted mainly with my colleague from the Treasury Board Secretariat, David Moloney, and his predecessor, isn't easy. There are various quite fixed view points. We have to inform people and see what the potential solutions are. We decided to conduct that study jointly with my colleagues from the Expenditure Management Sector and the Office of the Comptroller General in order to get an idea of the situation and to determine potential solutions.

Government Operations committee  That's quite a complex question. We can receive directives from the centre to do this or that. I can apply them to 125 government organizations, but there aren't enough hours in a day to do that. Instead I'm trying to put in place a form of governance in each of the departments that will make it possible to monitor them.

Government Operations committee  There might be. I've been looking at some ways--and I have not been able to discuss it with my colleagues from the Auditor General's office or my colleagues from Treasury Board Secretariat--of maybe how to record these kinds of liabilities separately on the balance sheet. Those could be liabilities that are voted appropriations, liabilities that are statutory appropriations, and liabilities that would be with no appropriation.

Government Operations committee  At the risk of error--

Government Operations committee  --because it's very complex.

Government Operations committee  No. Approximately $350,000 or $400,000.