Finance committee  Remember that the private plans have their own defined benefits, and so it's going to cost what it costs for them and their employee group as to what it will cost actuarially to pay for their benefits. The CPP, which is the example we use, costs employer and employee together 9% for the coverage that it is giving now.

Finance committee  They would have to come up with it.

Finance committee  This is for the very long term. The estimates are that it will take some 40 years for this to roll out and be complete. That's if there's no immediate contribution of tax dollars. This is only by the employer and employee.

Finance committee  In its current state, no, because it doesn't solve the problem.

Finance committee  Yes, I'd like to point out that the tax rules don't prevent you from contributing to the surpluses. You don't get tax deductions if you put it into your plan. If you wanted to set up a surplus fund or a contingency fund outside of getting a tax deduction for it, nothing stops you from doing it; it's just that nobody will.

Finance committee  It was a huge benefit, because the tradition up to now is that there's usually one pension-earning spouse and one non-pension-earning spouse, and obviously when you split that pension income between two taxpayers, you have a net tax savings to the family. It's been huge for many families.

Finance committee  Absolutely. I think there is a need--and I think it was mentioned here before--for some financial literacy among our whole population as to what it costs to prepare for your own retirement. As also has been mentioned, nobody starts to think about this until it's too late, really, to save up enough for your retirement.

Finance committee  And with the universal plan, you don't need to worry about portability.

Finance committee  But it is a patchwork. It depends on each separate private pension contract. Some people have it, some people don't. Some people have employers that provide that flexibility, some people don't. You need to look for some kind of minimum standard that provides flexibility for everybody, that provides portability.

Finance committee  Actually, CARP has a full position on that. It is true that in federally regulated industries, mandatory retirement still persists. The companies can't do anything about it, but they can petition the federal government to change the law with one fell stroke, which is what all the provinces have already done.

Finance committee  The greatest impact in the securities regulation area is the impact on people who are handling their own investments. When their investments go down the tubes, they look to see what happened—whether the market was adequately regulated and whether they have recourse in the event that they have been subject to poor advice or sharp practice.

Finance committee  Right, absolutely. As I say, some 29% of Canadian families don't have anything at all. It would address that group, it would address the people in the private sector, only 25% of whom have any access to defined benefit pension plans, and it would allow people to contribute to a universal plan instead of using their own best judgment and their own retirement savings expertise.

Finance committee  As the only non-pension expert at the table, I would say yes, we do need experts to manage the plans overall, but at some point the rules have to change as well. The CPP, for example, measured up extremely well compared with all the other plans, even in a bad market. Why was that?

Finance committee  You're absolutely right. The importance of the CPP is that it's mandatory, first of all, and that makes it extremely broad-based. It means people don't have the choice of spending all their money. They have enforced savings. The other important aspect is it allows employers and employees to fully fund their own retirement, rather than waiting for taxpayers to come after the fact, as is being impressed upon us now in some jurisdictions.

Finance committee  No, but everybody is talking about it, so I suppose that's an advance. On the importance of a pension summit--and I'm sure it will happen soon--the people at the table would be the ones who could make the changes. So it wouldn't be everybody else talking amongst themselves; the finance ministers who actually have the authority to make the changes in this area would be sitting at the table.