Foreign Affairs committee  To my mind, that is one of the greatest advantages in having a relationship with a country the culture of which is different. We, as public servants, gain a lot from this relationship. It is an opportunity to learn about other cultures, especially since Canada is now a much more diverse country.

Foreign Affairs committee  It's not the Public Service Commission of Canada that would be doing this. But the kind of model where we have an excellent example of how it worked very well was the work that Al Johnson did in South Africa. Mr. Rae mentioned Al Johnson. Al Johnson was one individual who was supported by the Government of Canada, who spent a lot of time in South Africa, and he was working with the ANC before they were in power.

Foreign Affairs committee  In my presentation, I gave the example of countries where the Public Service Commission has done work. It is really a matter of chance. This ad hoc approach is not the best. I believe it would be far better to adopt a strategy to determine to which countries the government of Canada wishes to provide support and funding.

Foreign Affairs committee  That depends. Each situation is unique. The work in China is truly being carried out between public services. The Department of Foreign Affairs is on board with us and there may be other relations down the road, but they will not be with us, the civil servants.

Foreign Affairs committee  Yes. How you get started is on two levels. There have been various efforts to develop inventories of public servants who are interested in doing the work. A lot of people ask me because I've been around for a long time and I know a lot of people. I know the people who are leaving and I know what their interests are.

Foreign Affairs committee  Absolutely. Everything I've seen here has to have that longer-term connection. Just an in and out is really just a drop in the bucket. You have to be working with people, so there's a continuity and a willingness to continue keeping in touch. If somebody has a question about how something works, well, send me an e-mail.

Foreign Affairs committee  The United Nations Development Programme.

Foreign Affairs committee  I think it has to be done on a case-by-case basis, depending upon the level of people you're dealing with and the kinds of issues they're confronted with. Mr. Rae used the example of South Africa, where it was a two-way effort, and there was quite a bit of travel of South Africans to Canada.

Foreign Affairs committee  --of executives.

Foreign Affairs committee  They vary. The Australians have been much more aggressive and have invested a lot more into having their schools and their public servants actually doing work in China than we have. There is a lot of variance, and I don't really have the expertise to say exactly how the models are different.

Foreign Affairs committee  The thing that is always a surprise to me.... I will be in one of these countries and the United Nations Development Programme people, or another developing agency, will be there and Canadians are working for them.

Foreign Affairs committee  I think it's a very good question. From my point of view, there isn't a strategic plan to do this, but that doesn't mean somebody at Foreign Affairs doesn't have one. It would be a very good question for them, and it's very important to do. On this idea of mutual interest, it should be something that's in the interest of Canada, as well as something the country wants.

Foreign Affairs committee  China is a good example. When the work started with China in the 1990s we were paying for the Chinese to come to us. We were paying their expenses when they came and spent time here for training. When we do work with China, they pay their own way and we pay our own way. The last couple of times I've gone to China to do lectures at their schools, they've wanted to pay me for doing that.

Foreign Affairs committee  There's been long-term CIDA funding and public service reform and renewal in Ukraine. There are going to be two people coming to your committee to speak about that project. In fact one of the people working on that project will be flying from Kiev to meet with the committee because she wants to have that conversation.

Foreign Affairs committee  In my view, that might come in the future. The projects I talked about are all led by public servants, assisted by former public servants.