Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you. Freeloader was your word, not mine. There are many people in this country who apply for refugee status and who, after going through the entire system that we have, are held not to be refugees. While they are in this country, prior to either removing themselves or being removed, my department pays for their health care, the provinces pay for housing in many instances and for social costs.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Mr. Chairman, I am not bashing them; I'm bashing those who come to this country who are not refugees. I agree with you absolutely. Whether I'm here or in another job six months from now, my department will be of the view that this country should continue to accept real refugees.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  That's right.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I think that's absolutely right.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Since IRPA was enacted by Parliament, in the first instance, in 2002.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  At the time, Parliament provided the government with the capacity to decide the proclamation dates of various parts of the statute. Large parts were put into effect, and the decision was made at the time.... As I understand it, there was already a huge backlog. There were already beginning to be problems with the system, and the view of the day was that the system did not require the RAD in order to be effective.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  In the end, if we have a RAD, we're going to have to ask the government and then Parliament for more money. People who are now spending their time and effort on the first level of determination are now going to have to spend it on appeals to the RAD. We think it's simply just going to add a layer of bureaucracy.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I appreciate it. I understand, I think, the argument you're making, that at the time Parliament enacted the law initially, there was a bit of a compromise between one to two commissioners and the RAD. But I also think it's important to note that when the system went from two commissioners to one, the acceptance rate did not go down.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you. As Mr. St-Cyr said, this has been a topic that has been of interest for some time. Not Mr. Kenney, but one of the previous ministers I worked with in CIC, had the high commissioner in Ottawa to talk about refugees generally and the Canadian system in particular. He basically said, as I stated earlier, that the UNHCR has no complaint to make about the Canadian system.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  We believe--

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you. You won't be surprised to hear me say that I do not think that it will. There are broad and deep systemic problems with the Canadian refugee determination system. Mr. Kenney has said that, and I think most members of this committee believe that is the case. This is the addition of one more level of review--a fairly limited review, I would point out.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  We don't think this is going to solve it. The practical effect of having the refugee appeal division will be, I think, that most people who are refused at the refugee protection division will go to the RAD. They will go relatively automatically, and it's not going to cost them a lot of money.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  That's a difficult question to answer, Mr. Chairman. We're generally viewed today as a country to which it is exceedingly easy to apply for refugee status. I think if Mr. St-Cyr's bill is approved, that is not fundamentally going to change. The way the law is currently set out, all you have to do is to touch Canada and you can apply for refugee status.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  It will add another layer and the RAD would be a paper appeal. I would note that before the Federal Court it is not a paper appeal if you are granted leave. I'd like to correct an incorrect impression that Ms. Chow left with the committee. It's not 10% of leave applications that are granted; it is 16%.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you. I agree with Mr. St-Cyr on one thing, which is on the point that you've made. There's nothing magical about a particular percentage of acceptance or rejection. He can argue that 42% is too low; I can argue it's too high. That's not the issue. I'm sorry Ms. Chow left.