Status of Women committee  Certainly. I do have a problem with what's going on. I think the public record discloses that section 11 was introduced--and I think it was in 1970 or 1977--to articulate the principle that there should not be discrimination between men and women, and that when persons were performing work of equal value they should be compensated at the same pay.

Status of Women committee  The process under section 11 of the Canadian Human Rights Act is not a proactive regime, it is a complaint-based regime. I understand generally it is trade unions that have used that complaint process. Certainly in the big FETCO employers, it has been the trade unions that have filed complaints, claiming that their members or some of the female-dominated group, when compared with a male-dominated group either in their own union or in another bargaining unit in the same organization, are doing work of equal value and there's a pay discrepancy.

Status of Women committee  On the other hand, a proactive regime will require the federal Treasury Board to come together with the trade unions in advance. With the proactive regime, it forces them to address these problems in advance of collective bargaining.

Status of Women committee  I'll speak from Canada Post's experience. We had a long-standing complaint that went on for over 25 years. The Federal Court sent it back to the tribunal, made critical comments about the process, and said the tribunal should have dismissed the case in the first year. But we went on for 15 years of litigation before the tribunal.

Status of Women committee  Could I answer your other question with respect to--

Status of Women committee  Let me try to address your question this way. First of all, FETCO, our organization, does not include the bankers, boys of the banks. When you say Canada Post has been involved in litigation...we had a complaint by the Public Service Alliance in 1982. That was a long time ago, and yes, that complaint is still in litigation.

Status of Women committee  Perhaps I could just summarize.

Status of Women committee  You have suggested to me, in fairness, that Canada Post is somehow responsible for a case that has lasted 25 years. The courts have found that the case should have been dismissed within the first year of hearing for lack of evidence. Thank you.

Status of Women committee  Thank you. The other question, which I think I already addressed...but both parties gave up on the process, both the Public Service Alliance and Canada Post. And in the year 2000, using the methodology that's in this act, we sat down with the Public Service Alliance of Canada, agreed on a job evaluation plan, and then implemented it in collective bargaining.

Status of Women committee  Thank you.

Status of Women committee  No, no, I'm talking about salary and benefits. I mean, it's the union that makes—

Status of Women committee  Let me finish, please. There's so much money it can devote to a round of bargaining and to reach a collective agreement, hopefully without a strike, and then you can forget about the economic sanctions. It's usually the union that decides where that money is going to be spent.

Status of Women committee  As a point of clarification, I'm here as a representative of FETCO and not as counsel to Canada Post Corporation. However, I will draw on the Canada Post example. In all Canada Post's bargaining units—I should say with the exception of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, but with the Public Service Alliance, which represents our white-collar workers; the Association of Postal Officials of Canada, which represents our supervisors; and the Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association, which represents our rural postmasters—what we have done is agree in advance of bargaining on a job evaluation plan, looking at the same criteria that are set out under section 11 of the Canadian Human Rights Act and that are also set out in the equitable compensation act, using skill, effort, responsibility, and working conditions.

Status of Women committee  At the bargaining table, that is where.... Again, as I said earlier, picking up on a theme from Professor Weiler, it's the union and management, the employer, at the bargaining table—I'm not talking about the non-unionized sector. That's where the terms and conditions and all the issues you look at in equal pay are all determined, at that bargaining table.

Status of Women committee  Most certainly. I think it's both parties, because as Weiler—and I think anyone who's familiar with collective bargaining—says, for the most part, at least in my environment, it is the trade union.... The employer has a budget. It has a mandate of how much money it can afford.