Public Safety committee  Yes, that does happen. And I think a lot of those people are the people we were talking about in prison. I think we've said that it can very well lead to someone being in the system. It's not always the case, and some of the people you find there are like that and some aren't.

Public Safety committee  Oh. Well, maybe I'll start, but I'm sure my colleagues have something to say about this. You're contrasting a reward and punishment system with mandatory...?

Public Safety committee  You're talking about compulsory treatment?

Public Safety committee  There is no easy answer to that. We know that treatment that is non-coerced tends to be more effective, tends to help people if they recognize that they have a problem and want help with it. That having been said, there are provisions in the law, of course, for treatment without consent under very limited circumstances.

Public Safety committee  I wouldn't want to identify mental illness with criminal activity in quite that way. I think, though, that it's important to distinguish between stigma on the part of the general public, say, and those who work in hospitals, who work in facilities, and so on. We know from research that unfortunately people who work in the system, health workers, are among the worst stigmatizers around.

Public Safety committee  I didn't hear you mention treatment in the facilities--

Public Safety committee  I feel very honoured, but I am not a doctor. I just want to be clear. I am a lawyer and a psychologist. I would say it's very important to treat addictions and mental illness together. The addiction is frequently a kind of symptom of the illness, so expecting someone to get their addiction under control without addressing the underlying mental health problem or the underlying trauma, or those kinds of needs, isn't going to work.

Public Safety committee  Okay. I think that's extremely important. You mentioned diversion, but we haven't really talked about this very much. Diversion, prior to people getting into any involvement with the criminal justice system, is obviously what we would be most concerned with, because as soon as someone is involved in the criminal justice system--whether it's at the provincial level, the kind of court support work that Frank has been very involved in, and others--we have added a whole lot of problems to that person's life as well as significant costs to the system.

Public Safety committee  I think a serious mental illness, a psychosis, in the general population is 1% to 3%. Depression is much broader. The figures generally are that one in five people in Canada will have a mental illness or substance abuse problem in their lifetime. That's a fairly well-accepted figure.

Public Safety committee  I read in some of the previous hearings an example where someone was being paid, I think, $88,000 and was hired by another organization that was paying them $118,000. I am not sure if my math exactly adds up, but it's almost that.

Public Safety committee  No, those are not my figures. Those are the figures that I believe were presented here by previous witnesses. So I don't have any source for that, but I have read some of the previous testimony.

Public Safety committee  Certainly the evidence is clear that people with mental health problems are not more violent than the general population in general. It is important to remember that, because while we are talking about great need in the correctional system for services for people with mental illness and addiction problems, I think that saying they are there because of those problems is a dangerous way to go.

Public Safety committee  I'm not aware of the literature either, but I think the question you're trying to get at is whether the kind of environment provided in a correctional facility is amenable to helping people with their mental health and addiction problems, and whether that's the appropriate place for people to be, or would they be better off in hospitals or in other kinds of treatment places.

Public Safety committee  My understanding is the Correctional Service already employs a number of psychologists and people with psychological training, but doesn't have many vacancies in those positions--trainers in assessment and testing, who assist people with their counselling and other kinds of programs; psychiatrists who assess needs for medication, for treatment, and those sorts of things; and social workers, people like that, to help clients in those areas.

Public Safety committee  My understanding is the 12% to 20% estimate is for people who've been diagnosed with a serious mental illness at intake, and it doesn't take into account people who might have a more moderate problem and it doesn't take into account people who become ill while they're in prison.